Rising inequality will mean less wealth for everyone

By MoneyWeek editor-in-chief Merryn Somerset Webb Mar 11, 2013

Merryn Somerset-Webb

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Regular readers will know the extent to which I suffer for knowledge. And so it was that I found myself at the National Association of Pension Funds conference in the rain in Edinburgh this week. The good news is that many fund management companies there were handing out free umbrellas (thanks, everyone). My search for nuggets of interest was also a great success.

On Wednesday morning, Matt Ridley, author of The Rational Optimist, gave a talk in which he showed some fabulous feel-good charts (falling infant mortality, rising contentment, rising food availability, fewer war-related deaths, more democracy, etc). The most interesting  were on rising global wealth. He suggested that it won’t be long now before extreme poverty is eradicated (on current projections, almost no one will be living on less than a dollar a day by 2028).

Ridley put forward a brilliantly graphic example of just how much richer we have become – by looking at the cost of an hour of light. How long, he asked, would it have taken someone on the average wage to buy an hour of artificial light to read by at various points in history in the US? In 1800 the answer was six hours. In 1870 it was 15 minutes. In 1950 it was eight seconds. By 1997 it was a mere half a second.

But the graph he showed that grabbed me most was the one on income inequality: look at a global measure and it seems that not only is extreme poverty disappearing, but the world, taken as a whole, is becoming a more equal place. This is excellent news on all sorts of levels, but particularly because research increasingly shows that progress moves at its fastest when wealth is relatively well distributed.

I am reading a book by historians Charles Foster and Eric Jones on this very subject (The Fabric of Society and How it Creates Wealth, Arley Hall Press). Foster and Jones traced the social and economic conditions in four societies that manufactured cotton cloth between 1100 and 1780 - northern Italy, Germany, Lancashire and Holland - and looked at how and why they were so successful at generating wealth. There appears to be a clear answer.

In each country, a society emerged where a large number of families owned a small amount of capital – “wealth was fairly widely distributed” (perhaps as a result of having plural political institutions). “Vigorous technical and social innovation then occurred” which created rising wealth across the board – probably because “many families had enough wealth to permit innovators to experiment and establish their new ideas”.

In the end, however, some families worked it so that they ended up economically and politically more successful than most others. Wealth became concentrated in a few hands, and that was that: plural government turned to oligarchy, innovation declined and “these societies ceased to be able to generate increasing wealth for their citizens”.

A quick look at one village in northern Italy in 1243 – Piuvica. Records (amazing that there are any, isn’t it?) show that there were 238 resident householders in the village and that the top 50% controlled 80% of the wealth. You might think that sounds a lot, but in the great scheme of history it suggests an astonishingly equal distribution.


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Similar figures exist for the city state of Orvieto. This was the period in which business development surged in northern Italy, when the quality of cloth (silk, cotton and wool) improved and when great innovation appeared in accounting and banking. But with wealth came greed. And after 1300 or so, committees of citizens gave way to chief magistrates who often succeeded in making the position hereditary. They became Signori.

Next came rising budgets and taxes and the armies of officials needed to administer them. By 1427 you could see the changes in the records from the city of Florence: 8% of the households held 80% of the wealth.

This came with some good - just as the concentration of wealth in the UK post-industrial revolution gave us 150 ornamental lakes designed by Capability Brown, the Italian concentration gave us the artwork of the Italian Renaissance. But it might also have had something to do with the fact that by 1700 “an exporting textile industry in Italy barely existed and the country was no longer rich”.

You’ll be wondering what my point is. It is this: wealth inequality may be, as Ridley suggested, falling across the globe, but in the West it is rising to uncomfortable levels.

In the US, the top 1% of the population own more than 35% of the nation’s wealth while the top 20% own not far off 90%. The bottom 80% between all of them own a mere 7%.

The UK looks pretty rubbish when it comes to wealth distribution as well. The top 1% have something in the region of 20% of the wealth, and the top 10% hold 50%. And, as I write, a good 150 ex-hedge fund managers, chief executives or retired politicians-turned consultants are probably in the process of designing new lakes for their estates or, as Foster puts it when he refers to the UK rich after the industrial revolution, “expending their talents on trivial pursuits”.

The wider world might be doing fine in the distribution stakes. But, if progress even partly depends on a good distribution of wealth, this shift doesn’t bode particularly well for us.

• This article was first published in the Financial Times

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  • 1. Boris MacDonut

    (11 March 2013, 05:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    Good article Merryn. I am quite a fan of Matt Ridley, being an optimist myself. But you are correct to remind us how inequality steals from everyone. It is the failure to comprehend the difference twixt billionaire and mere millionaire. The latter is well off and comfortable but the former has over a thousand times as much wealth and deprives many thousands of a few crucial quid more. Would a society rather have an extra 20,00 millionaires or an extra 20 billionaires.
    By the way. Danny Dorling has the top 1% in the UK at 24% of wealth,the same level as in 1919.

  • 2. Peter

    (12 March 2013, 11:35AM)  Complain about this comment

    It also depresses the economy, because instead of spending the money on goods, the Capital is hoarded and some lent to governments to provide deficit spending which makes us all the more poorer.

  • 3. 4caster

    (12 March 2013, 11:49AM)  Complain about this comment

    I too am concerned about rising inequality, which tends to lead to the election of extreme populist left wing governments in democracies. In non-democracies, inequality sows the seeds of revolution.
    Of course some kinds of inequality are inevitable and even desirable, for example between willing workers and lazy layabouts: or between honest, successful entrepreneurs and those who lack the talent: or between students who choose a scarce discipline which they then put to productive use, and those who learn dead-end subjects for which there is no demand.
    What society needs in more equality of opportunity.

  • 4. JREwing

    (12 March 2013, 12:11PM)  Complain about this comment

    "But, if progress even partly depends on a good distribution of wealth............."

    That's why the Soviet Union was such a raging success.

  • 5. JREwing

    (12 March 2013, 12:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    "In the US, the top 1% of the population own more than 35% of the nation’s wealth while the top 20% own not far off 90%. The bottom 80% between all of them own a mere 7%."

    Read Charles Murray's "Coming Apart". It deals with the causes.

  • 6. Greg Coombs

    (12 March 2013, 12:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree that this is a good article and as such it got me thinking. Does anyone know what fraction of the wealth of ‘the top 1%’ in the USA is ‘expended in trivial pursuits’ and how much is tied-up in productive assets within the economy? I ask this because Warren Buffet supposedly has a modest lifestyle despite his billions in wealth.

    I can’t claim to be either billionaire or millionaire but I am trying to invest the money I can in real assets that play a role in helping the economy – growing food, for instance. I could imagine that if these kind of investments are successful and expanded then over time I might fall into the category of xillionaire. Does this then automatically make my actions bad for society and a cramp on growth? Surely it depends on whether I indulge in a lavish lifestyle that adds up to ‘trivial pursuits’ rather than continuing to play a productive role in the economy? I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

  • 7. Justin

    (12 March 2013, 12:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    Very good article and very true. I work in industry and over the last 20 years in the UK I have seen it systematically ruined and shut down. Our once world beating companies and industries are no more. Now, I have to go to places like Germany, Africa and Russia to find significant industry in the Europe, Middle East and Africa region.

    At the same time, I have witnessed a huge increase in wealth inequality in the UK and USA. I put this down to the rise in the financial sector in these economies, which are dominated by the short-term ism of Wall Street and The City of London.

  • 8. Justin

    (12 March 2013, 12:49PM)  Complain about this comment

    Continued: The events of the last few years have shown that this was not at all a good idea and has cost the ordinary tax payer and saver huge sums. It is clear that the financial sector enriches the few at the expense of the many. It is like a giant vampire squid sucking the money out of all of us. It has resulted in the massive debts that we now see in the West. All those mortgages and other debts are now strangling our economies, which is why we have no growth.

  • 9. Tracey

    (12 March 2013, 12:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    One of the causes of the widening pay gap is the practice of across-the-board percentage pay increases within organisations. For example, when Agenda for Change was introduced in the NHS in 2004 a cleaner earned £12, 147 and a senior manager earned £57,539 (a pay gap of £45,392) . By 2012 the cleaner was earning £14,864 and the senior manager £67,134 (a pay gap of £52,770 - the gap had widened by £6,878 and would have been wider had there not been a pay freeze since 2010). The compounding effect of these percentage rises is the reason for the widening gap. And we all know the snowballing effect of compound interest on our savings over the long-term.

  • 10. Clive

    (12 March 2013, 01:22PM)  Complain about this comment

    I think it's naive to assume that widespread distrubtion of more money would leave anybody better off. All it would do is stoke inflation.

    The British seem to conveniently forget that they are ALL massively wealthy in world terms. Even the poorest people here have a lifestyle that probably 80%+ of the world would envy.

    Let's face it, a lot of people are never happy, always looking at others and saying "it's not fair" about something or another.

  • 11. Jay

    (12 March 2013, 01:42PM)  Complain about this comment

    The politics of envy converted into socialist ideology results in less wealth for everyone.

    Redistributing wealth to make everyone equal will change nothing. It is not inequality of wealth, but inequality of opportunity. The system needs to change. Inequality of land tenure is the problem. We need a system of 100% owner-occupiers both domestic and commercial.


    1. Abolish landlordism (including REITs) and all rent seeking claim on the wealth creation of businesses and tenants.
    2. No one to own a property or land unless they use it.
    3. Transfer property free of taxation from one generation to the next. Allow only one inherited property per person.
    4. The State by law to provide a free development site to any propertyless person to build their own house or start a business.
    5. Abolish all taxation on production. Tax the advantages derived from favourable location.
    6. Capital gains from increased values derived from planning permission be taxed 95%.

  • 12. Scott

    (12 March 2013, 02:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    I greatly appreciate this article, but would note that the evidence of this phenomenon has been there for some time. It is certainly not new to environmental scientists and advocates, who have been pointing out the failures in the current economic models for decades or more.

    Our current economic model is based on a very short-termist vision borne out of the post-war period. It is based on consumerism and the fundamentally flawed 'trickle down' theory.

    We are still suffering from the fundamental flaws of a quasi-Darwinist, laissez-faire economics. This has created an upper crust of ultra-greedy 'super rich' non-citizens who are happy to sell out their nation or the people from their place of origin to guarantee their right to be wealthier.

    I'd say that the 'right to horde wealth' (and 'right to over-charge people') is about as socially acceptable in most middle-to-upper class circles as the 10 Commandments are to Christian circles.

  • 13. John

    (12 March 2013, 02:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    Your timing could not be better - I am just teaching my Year 11s about income inequality as part of their Business Studies GCSE, so your article is ideal to get them discussing. Thanks for the link to Matt Ridley too - very encouraging!

  • 14. Clive

    (12 March 2013, 03:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ John #13

    Rather than simply look at the UK/US, perhaps you could give them the "big picture" of the developed West vs the undeveloped world (e.g. rural India). See how many vote for giving 90% of our wealth away to make the world a fairer place.

  • 15. Simon

    (12 March 2013, 04:09PM)  Complain about this comment

    In response to the above remarks claiming that the article is espousing 'Socialism'/Communism, wealth inequality is Ok etc.:

    Read the article again. That is not what the author claims. And, as is mentioned, THE EVIDENCE says that wealth inequality is bad for economies. By trying to rubbish the evidence, or re-directing the argument you are merely trying to maintain the status quo, no doubt because you have vested interests.

    No-one is claiming the evidence is a case for left wing politics, merely that work should be more fairly rewarded. Read about co-operatives for a start. The evidence is saying the current system where e.g. pay is continually cut for the 95% by the 5% who then take all that money and more for themselves as a 'reward' and then hoard it/prevent it being used productively is a bad idea.

  • 16. Clive

    (12 March 2013, 04:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    Simon

    I've read the article (again), but see no "evidence" merely some suppositions.

    MSW "But it MIGHT also have had something to do with the fact ..." and "But, IF progress even partly" (my emphasis)

  • 17. Boris MacDonut

    (12 March 2013, 05:36PM)  Complain about this comment

    #3 4caster. What a twit. You even suggest that the opposite of entrepreneur is lack of talent. With folk like you there is little hope. Have you ever read a book?
    #11 Jay. Merryn does not espouse equal incomes she is saying that too much inequality is bad for the economy. Surely that is not a difficult concept.

  • 18. Justin

    (12 March 2013, 07:40PM)  Complain about this comment

    The main point of this article is that as a nations wealth becomes more concentrated in a small percentage of the population, this has a detrimental effect on innovation and progress. In other words, it has a stifling effect on the economy. In the US and UK, this wealth inequality has become more extreme, so it is likely to now be affecting the performance of our economies. This is important and we should take note before it is too late.

  • 19. Stephen Griffiths

    (12 March 2013, 07:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    Clive, you're a ignorant twerp. By your logic we could keep inflation down by giving all of our money to the Queen and becoming serfs.

    I heard an interesting interview this week with Max Keiser in which he was pointing out that if the minimum wage in the US had kept pace with the money supply it would now be $100 an hour. With that in mind I would like to add to Greg Coombes' request for info about about the circulation of money when it becomes concentrated. Intuitively I would expect that money given to the working and middle classes is likely to immediately circulate back into the economy (food/fuel/shelter) whereas one suspects that when the average millionaire makes another million most of it ends up in offshore accounts in the Cayman islands. The James Henry report estimates £13 trillion has been hidden in tax havens. Is Moneyweek aware of other direct evidence that the superwealthy are sucking money out of the global economy into 'wealth sinks'?

  • 20. Daisy

    (12 March 2013, 08:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    Exellent article Merryn. I really enjoyed 'the Cost of inequality' by Stewart Lansley, a book you recommended last year, on the same subject. Particularly interesting was the story that Henry Ford, increased the wages of his workers (to the discust of fellow business people), so that they could afford to purchast the vehicles they made. The rest is history.

  • 21. Sid

    (12 March 2013, 08:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Justin

    I agree with your comment. Usually when you talk about inequality people fall into the lazy archaic capitalist v socialist argument which is totally irrelevant. More importantly alot of people are starting to wake up to the fact that although we are supposed to live under a 'capitalist' system, this system is now so rigged that aspiration and progress is beyond the reach of the majority. This is the real story, and as Merryn quite rightly points out this is going to have dramatic and dire consequences for both the economy, and wealth creation in the future.

  • 22. Justin

    (12 March 2013, 08:41PM)  Complain about this comment

    Stephen, here is one for a start - the private equity bandwagon (venture capital or, so called angel investor) that takes over companies through massive financial leverage, strips out the assets and leaves the company saddled with debt. A lot of our industry has been hollowed out this way and, no doubt, that money ended up in the Cayman islands!

  • 23. Happy Jack

    (12 March 2013, 09:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ 19 Stephen

    A friend of mine recently visited me from Australia and during talks we got onto the economy and how differing governments dealt with downturns. In Australia when the last downturn hit, the Australian government gave everyone the equivalent of 1000 dollars ( roughly ) calculating that people would spend this and boost the economy therefore averting a serious downturn. In comparison the British governments response to our downturn has been to impose 'austerity' and drain the swamp. I believe we are now entering a triple - dip recession despite the billions that have been pumped into the markets ( most of which one would presume will end up in the caymen islands ) .

  • 24. Boris MacDonut

    (12 March 2013, 10:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    #20 Daisy. Try "The Great Tax Robbery" by Richard Brooks of the Tax Justice Network. It will make your skin creep.

  • 25. Clive

    (13 March 2013, 08:41AM)  Complain about this comment

    Stephen Griffiths

    I’m surprised you don’t accept the link between rising average household income and rising inflation, but then people who are into name-calling…

    Couple of easy examples for you.

    Why are prices of most goods/services higher in the South East than else-where. A: because average household has more income than else-where. If a national chain (e.g. supermarket) rolled out a new product, they’d almost certainly price it higher in the South East, knowing it would be affordable.

  • 26. Clive

    (13 March 2013, 08:42AM)  Complain about this comment

    continued..

    House prices generally. Decades ago, most households had one income. After WWII some women went out to work. Their households had higher income, bought them a better lifestyle. But, when it got to the point that the majority of households had two incomes, house prices inevitably rose as sellers knew they were pitching to households with increased income.

    Inflation is depressed when the average purchaser (not just total money supply in the economy) can’t afford the increase. Removing that purchaser barrier by increasing average income will necessarily remove that resistance to inflation.

  • 27. Justin

    (13 March 2013, 09:25AM)  Complain about this comment

    Clive, the main point of this article is that as a nations wealth becomes more concentrated in a small percentage of the population, this has a detrimental effect on innovation and progress. In other words, it has a stifling effect on the economy. In the US and UK, this wealth inequality has become more extreme, so it is likely to now be affecting the performance of our economies. This is important and we should take note before it is too late.

  • 28. Happy Jack

    (13 March 2013, 10:39AM)  Complain about this comment

    26 Clive

    You seem to have completely missed the point of this article. As Justin and Merryn quite rightly point out, wealth distribution is now so extreme it is now having a detrimental effect on our economy and our ability to create, innovate, and ultimately progress and grow. This is not about envy or the politics of redistribution. It is simply about economic fundamentals. If you do not understand this you should study how Britain became Great, and led the world during the industrial revolution. Then contrast that era and the economic fundamentals of that era with the sorry state of affairs we find ourself in now. I think you will find it very enlightening.

  • 29. Justin

    (13 March 2013, 11:13AM)  Complain about this comment

    Yes, Happy Jack, we (the electorate) have allowed our systems to become fundamentally unfair. So, we all need to do something about it urgently! I would suggest that neither of the main political parties have the answer or can be trusted to deliver. For example, they lied to us about ring fencing the NHS and many other things at the last election...One suggestion would be to cut the numbers of MP's, parliaments and economists that are costing us a fortune and not delivering results. The size of the state is far too high anyway and needs to be re-balanced with a newly invigorated private sector. And, not just trying to create another credit boom that got us into this mess. Our debts are way too high for that.

  • 30. Clive

    (13 March 2013, 11:47AM)  Complain about this comment

    Justin, Happy Jack

    I know the article claims that, but I have seen nothing in the way of proof. Just because a number of people make the claim doesn't make it true.

  • 31. Justin

    (13 March 2013, 03:50PM)  Complain about this comment

    Clive what more evidence do you need? Please read this for a start:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898

    The last time wealth inequality peaked to this level in the UK was 1918!

    With wealth inequality comes social unrest, which we already have started to see. Also, the rise of right wing fascist parties such as we are now seeing in austerity ravaged southern Europe and the UK. I for one do not want to live in such a society.

  • 32. Clive

    (13 March 2013, 04:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    Justin

    OK, I've read it. I don't dispute the numbers. What am I'm asking is where's the proof that this is a "bad" thing for the economy ?

    Can't be that bad, as we're only returning to numbers seen before in this country - in 1918 - and I don't remember a revolution then, or the economy collapsing.

  • 33. Angela

    (13 March 2013, 04:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    After 1918 the economy behaved as one would expect when a quarter of a generations wealth producers were removed by war and disease. There was a massive redistribution of wealth.
    Do not think that is about to happen in this century. Although you never know, of course.

  • 34. Happy Jack

    (13 March 2013, 05:33PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Clive

    I understand your scepticism, but there is plenty of historical evidence out there if you care to look, and you don't have to look just at the UK / US. Why not try Chinese or Japanese history to give you a broader view. It would be interesting if we could discuss this subject again say in ten years time after we have completed the next chapter of our nations economic story. Justin talks about change which seems a tad optimistic. I believe Britain will stick with the status quo. It will be interesting thus to see from a purely theoretical perspective if Britain is a more prosperous and innovative nation in ten years time . As you seem a staunch defender of the status quo it would also be interesting to know your thoughts on this, and what sort of economy you would envisage we have if we are to continue as we are .

  • 35. Clive

    (14 March 2013, 08:14AM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Happy Jack

    I've no idea what our future economy will hold. If you’re a believer in capitalism, you’ll believe that when opportunities arise money should flood into them.

    I think our economy and the “soak the rich” are related topics, in that I think a lot of people want any answer other than “you need to work much harder, for less”. People seem to have fallen for the idea you can have cheap imports (despite UK job losses) as we’ll let foreigners do the grunt stuff like assembling TVs, making clothes etc. while we stick to the clever stuff. Two big problems with that, 1) doing only the clever stuff doesn’t generate enough jobs, 2) arrogance to assume foreigners can’t also do the clever stuff (Indian space programme ?)

    People are going to have to accept they’ll either need to add a lot more value to products, or work a lot harder for a lot less in order to compete against the likes of the BRICs. And, yes, the latter will mean lower living standards.

  • 36. Happy Jack

    (14 March 2013, 09:50AM)  Complain about this comment

    Clive

    That was a very honourable answer, & I agree with you on nearly every point . I am certainly not that confident about the short to medium term on the economy because I believe that alot of people still believe that we can go back to the old ways. ie: buying & selling overpriced houses, funding a lifestyle you can't afford on debt, & printing money to try and gloss over a myriad of problems . As several posters have pointed out, this situation is unsustainable, and may manifest in some 'interesting results'. I also believe that you are right about capitalism. However for a capitalist society to function properly it has to be underpinned by something of substance, and the collective ingenuity & hard work of the people, or at least a section of the people ( ref: the industrial revolution ) and not for the sole purpose of an oligarchy. I think this is really what the nub of this article is about ( although I may be wrong )

  • 37. Clive

    (14 March 2013, 10:37AM)  Complain about this comment

    Happy Jack

    Agree with you on people hoping to go back to low priced imports, cheap credit and rising house prices being the answer to their problems.

    People might argue that government should have an industrial strategy. Fine idea, I’d go with that. But, what specifically – e.g. Graphene ? 3D printing ? Will these generate jobs/money and, if so, in what ways and how much.

    Reason I push back on “soak the rich” is when people say “they can pay more” no end point is ever mentioned. I’m lucky to earn enough to pay 40% tax, but I wonder when that principle will come down to “heh Clive, you’ve still got more income/wealth than them, you can pay another £10..and another and another...”. People need to realize it’s not “make them pay more” and that’s the end of it, ‘cos it’s just the start, there’s always a reaction. e.g. Dyson is a billionaire with (I believe) a factory in Singapore. Target him hard, he may just move to Singapore with reduced tax receipts.

  • 38. Happy Jack

    (14 March 2013, 11:25AM)  Complain about this comment

    Clive

    Again I find myself agreeing with you. I am a massive admirer of James Dyson and think he is a shinning light , but very few people listen to him. Why ? Because he earned his wealth the old way perhaps. Most people in this country simply want to buy a property and watch the easy money roll in. Or on a national level print money when the economy tanks. The old concept of capatalism has been consigned to the history books. We live in a pseudo - capatalist society where the idiots are greeted and welcome, and the real geniuses are sidelined and either ignore or vilified.

  • 39. Happy Jack

    (14 March 2013, 11:35AM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Clive

    "soak the rich" basic human nature, it is worth reading what happened in America leading up to the 1929 crash, and then what happened after that during the thirties economic depression. It gives you a good idea of where we are at now.

  • 40. Justin

    (14 March 2013, 12:56PM)  Complain about this comment

    Yes, I agree that trying to build a consumer society based on debt is a bad idea and unsustainable as an economic strategy. Only the financial sector benefits, everyone else ends up in financial bondage and gets poorer. Especially when wages and savings aren't even keeping up with inflation.

    But we have a desperate government simply looking on a short-term view to get re-elected, so the omens don't look good for this country. They will dangle that carrot in front of the electorate again and they will fall for it.

    I agree that had work is needed to create real wealth, not the illusory wealth from an unsustainable credit / property bubble. But, hard work is not what most people want. Also, needed is imagination, creativity and some luck. More support from the government also would help!

  • 41. Boris MacDonut

    (14 March 2013, 02:43PM)  Complain about this comment

    #38 Happy Jack. Who do you see as the idiots that are welcomed and who are the geniuses? In the Telegraph list of the top 100 living geniuses the UK has 23. More than any other nation.
    There are several ways two ways of defining it. At the original IQ of 140 apparantly we would have 250,000 in the UK. At the more stretching level of 180 only 35. Wierdly the Telegraph list includes Nelson Mandela, Matt Groening (of Simpsons fame), Micheal Eavis( yes, Glastonbury farmer),Prince and Rupert Murdoch. But also more believable ones like Hawking ,Berners -Lee and Damian Hirst.
    I'd be interested as we seem to have a quarter of the World's uber talent here already,just how many you think we should have.

  • 42. Happy Jack

    (14 March 2013, 03:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Boris

    Nice try Boris . I'm not going to get drawn into the sort of inane discussion that you would have at a pub quiz down the dog and duck. It's quite obvious you haven't got a clue what we are talking about .

    @ Justin, I agree with everything you have said especially the imagination and creativity bits.

  • 43. Boris MacDonut

    (14 March 2013, 04:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    #42 Happy Jack . I am perfectly capable of following your argument. I just don't believe in the talent myth and wanted you to expand a bit. I always thought Britain's advantage in the industrial revolution was two -fold. Location ( a long coast facing the America) and vastly improved agricultural production.
    You are correct that inequality stifles initiative. You are wrong to say debt is not the way forward. I'm afraid debt is the way forward.The sooner you puritan types realise this the better.

  • 44. Boris MacDonut

    (14 March 2013, 04:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    #42 Happy Jack . I am perfectly capable of following your argument. I just don't believe in the talent myth and wanted you to expand a bit. I always thought Britain's advantage in the industrial revolution was two -fold. Location ( a long coast facing the America) and vastly improved agricultural production.
    You are correct that inequality stifles initiative. You are wrong to say debt is not the way forward. I'm afraid debt is the way forward.The sooner you puritan types realise this the better.

  • 45. Happy Jack

    (14 March 2013, 07:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ 42 Boris

    I was not saying that there is no talent in this country, we are lucky to be gifted with many talented individuals, many who you mentioned, however this was not the point I was trying to make. I am also aware that there is a modern view that the more debt you have the better, and as you say debt is the way forward, which also seems to be the prevailing othodoxy. However to the 'puritan' mind, debt is simply another form of slavery. I hope that clears things up.

  • 46. Justin

    (14 March 2013, 09:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    Boris, why is debt the way forward? Surely it is not a good thing for a country, business or individual to be heavily in debt? Who is the true beneficiary from such a situation?

  • 47. Boris MacDonut

    (14 March 2013, 10:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    #45 &46. Debt is a necessary evil, a useful tool. It has liberated many ordinary folk in the modern west .Given them a chance to have a go, take a risk and not stay stuck with the same life chances as their parents. To see it in quasi -religious terms like sin is misplaced. We need debt like we need supermarkets, roads and power stations.It is a way of life, part of the infrastructure. Tha national debt has been with us since 1692 and I can't see it going away. we must learn to live with it, manage it properly for our own good. Crazy Quixotian efforts to extnguish it are as pointless as tilting at windmills.

  • 48. Boris MacDonut

    (14 March 2013, 10:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    #47.....oh and debt is a major tool used by the tax avoidance industry to shift profits abroad and reduce tax bills in high rate fiscs. Luxembourg has the highest overseas debt in the World at about 3,500% of GDP. It is also among the handful of richest palces on Earth. Bangladesh has virtually no debt. Try telling the impoverished African farmer he should not borrow $100 to buy some tools or seed because it is evil.

  • 49. Justin

    (14 March 2013, 10:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    Debt also has enslaved millions and caused people to commit suicide. But who is the true beneficiary of debt? What level of debt is acceptable?

    I have noticed that the most profitable customers for lenders are sub-prime, such as those using payday loans. What tactics are being used to make these people pay back the loans plus the punitive levels of interest?

    I ask again who is the true beneficiary of debt? Why have the British been encouraged to mortgage themselves to the hilt? Who really benefits from that?

  • 50. Happy Jack

    (15 March 2013, 12:47AM)  Complain about this comment

    Boris - I enjoyed your sermon on the joys of debt, I don't think anyone denies debt in moderation can be a useful tool. Nor will it ever be eradicated. But what if it becomes a necessity, like a junkie hooked on heroin. Surely there is a level at which it becomes counter productive, unproductive, and destructive, not only for the junkie but for everyone around him . If you knew a junkie had a problem would you advise him that to cure his problem he simply took more heroin ? There is a limit at which debt becomes a form of slavery, of economic bondage, not of liberation as you seem to think.

  • 51. Clive

    (18 March 2013, 09:34AM)  Complain about this comment

    Joseph Stiglitz's book The Price of Inequality makes his case for less inequality in the US. I'm currently reading the Kindle version. Haven't finished it, so can't say how much I agree with. (Not likely to be 100% as he's very much to the left of where I am politically)

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