What the 1929 crash tells us about stocks today

By Dominic Frisby Mar 18, 2010

Dominic Frisby

Share with
friends:

Comments (32) Print this article

I was lucky enough to hear a presentation last week by Tony Plummer of Helmsman Economics on the psychology of market patterns and cycles. Tony has kindly sent me some of his charts. I'm going to look at them in today's Money Morning.

'Those who cannot remember the past,' wrote the Spanish philosopher George Santayana, 'are condemned to repeat it'. Judging by historical patterns, it seems investors are a forgetful bunch.

It really is astonishing how history repeats. Humans just go on making the same mistakes.

On the one hand, it's a shame that we don't seem capable of learning. But on the other, it means that smart investors can take cues from the past to get some idea of what might happen in the future…

People make the same mistakes time after time

Let's start with perhaps the most famous stock chart in history. You've probably seen it many times before in one form or another. It's the Dow Jones index through the boom of the 1920s, the bust of 1929 and the Depression of the '30s.

Fast forward half a century and cross to the other side of the planet – it doesn't make any difference, man goes on making the same mistakes. You can't stop him. The chart below shows the boom and bust of the '80s and '90s in Japan (the red line) superimposed on the Wall Street Crash (the black line).

The side axes are slightly manipulated, with Wall Street measured from 50 to 400 and the Nikkei from 500 to 4,500. But even so, the similarities are quite remarkable. Of particular note is the similarity in the duration of each boom and bust. Even the bear market rallies to 1936 and 1996 correspond.

One major difference is that the panic low in Japan of 1992 was higher than the Dow's in early 1932. Not that it would have felt that way to the Japanese. It's also worth noting that 20 years on, in 2008/09, the Nikkei was sinking to new lows.

That's very different to the Dow's experience. Twenty years after 1930, the highs of 1929 still hadn't been revisited, but the Dow was in a clear uptrend. The Depression was over.


Special FREE report from MoneyWeek magazine: When will house prices bottom out - and how will you know?

  • Why UK property prices are going to fall 50%
  • When it will be time to get back in and buy up half price property

Why Japan's crash should worry the West

Modern Western policy-makers, take note. Japan's policy of interventionist economics created all sorts of mal-investment, from zombie banks to roads to nowhere. Rather than helping matters, it only delayed the inevitable, dragging out the bear market almost beyond belief.

The 2008/09 lows in the Nikkei at 7,000 (and there's no guarantee it won't go lower still) could have been reached a lot sooner, if only policy makers hadn't intervened to prop up a market which needed flushing out. How much better would it have been for Japan had the authorities just left the market alone?

Now we superimpose the dotcom boom-bust on the Wall Street Crash. The side axes are on slightly different scales again, with the DJIA from 50 to 400 and the Nasdaq from below 1,000 to 6,000. The similarities are again remarkable, right up the secondary crash of 2007/08 and 1936/37.

In fact these two are so similar, I'll make a prediction for you. Just as the 1937 low on Wall Street was retested in the early 1940s, I believe that the Nasdaq lows of 2008-9 – and with them the lows of the Dow and S&P 500 – will be retested within the next three or four years. But if Western policy-makers continue to follow the Japanese bail-out model, it'll take longer before we get the retest.

... and don't forget China's bubble

Meanwhile, for all the excitement about China saving the global economy, it's forgotten that China's stock market too enjoyed a speculative bubble. It peaked in 2007. Here it is, superimposed on Wall Street. (The side axes are slightly different again: DJIA as always 50 to 400; Shanghai Composite from 1,000 to 7,000)

Again the boom-bust has the same anatomy. The coming years will reveal whether the Chinese stock market will continue to play out like Wall Street in the 1930s. But for now we're on track. China's bounce out of the crash has happened faster than Wall Street in 1929. But we're now at levels where you might expect it to peter out.

Yes, these charts are slightly manipulated on the side axes, but, in terms of duration, the repeating patterns are uncanny. Human psychology doesn't change. Man will go on experiencing greed, fear, and every other emotion that afflicts investors and market traders. It's one reason it pays as an investor to think for yourself, rather than follow the crowd.

So where are we today?

But where do these repeating patterns say we are in the grand scheme of things today? Assuming that the Nasdaq will continue to track the other major indices, such as the FTSE, the Dow and the S&P 500; and assuming that it continues to follow the old Wall Street model above, we can look to Wall Street in the late 1930s for clues. The Nasdaq, just as Wall Street did in 1937/38, has just bounced after its secondary crash. That model suggests – to my surprise, I admit – that there may be a little more upside left in this rally before the market turns and the lows of last year are retested.

Nevertheless I remain of the mind that the economic house has not been properly put in order; nor has the system been flushed out. I would, therefore, argue that though the upward trend is currently our friend, the greater risk is to the downside.

Another well-known cycle also suggests that the lows for the year lie ahead - the four-year presidential cycle. I'll be looking at this – and what it means for stocks in 2010 - in more depth next week.

Our recommended article for today

How small-cap shares beat traditional stocks

Over the last half-century, small-cap stocks outperformed traditional shares by over 3% a year. And recently, small-cap shares led the bounce back from the market crash. Here, Tom Bulford explains the wealth-generating potential of small company shares.

Comments (32)

Share with
friends:

Comments

  • 1. Bob Roberts

    (18 March 2010, 11:42AM)  Complain about this comment

    So, the NASDAQ will crash again and will test its lows but it might not be for a few years?

    Hmm, think that is the way the markets all work - problem is, believing all this doom and gloom has meant that many Moneyweek followers have probably lost out big time on the rebound in the markets in the past year.

    To be frank, I have been a big bear but am now thinking of shedding my bear overcoat as, quite simply, less and less people are taking about this being a bear rally. Despite all the talk about sovereign crisises, currencies falling, unemployment, commerical property being a mess, etc, etc, the markets continue to rise.

  • 2. Chris

    (18 March 2010, 11:58AM)  Complain about this comment

    Bob - "Despite all the talk about sovereign crisises, currencies falling, unemployment, commerical property being a mess, etc, etc, the markets continue to rise."

    That statement in itself is why I suspect Dominic may well be correct in his article.

    At present there are too many bulls out there. Im neither a long term bull or a bear, I invest based on gut feeling, fundamentals and the general outlook. This market has further to run but it will come to a grinding halt, the longer the rally goes on, the larger the eventual correction will be i expect.

  • 3. Keith P

    (18 March 2010, 12:03PM)  Complain about this comment

    An interesting article, but the one huge missing clue was the graph showing the current soaring markets before the next crash. It would have been useful to see this. If that had been included, we've have been able to see how far along we are to the next Armageddon. The problem with selling all your investments to avoid such a catastophe, however, is that you instantly put yourself up for CGT at 18%. So the fall has got to be more than 18% before you're losing out. And with volatility in all markets increasing, you can bounce up and down so that the next quickly following 'up' cancels out the benefit of having cashed in. I conclude that its better to shut your eyes and stay invested for the long term. Who wants to cash into the depreciating asset called Sterling?

  • 4. Bob Roberts

    (18 March 2010, 12:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    I hear you Chris... but what if that run goes on for 12 months, 2 years, 3 or 4 years?

    Isn't that just the natural cycle of markets - they go up and they go down over time? I don't read anything into Dominic's article that suggests anything other than the markets currently doing what markets do.

    As I read the article I was expecting to get to a killer paragraph with strong reasons, strong fundamentals, strong signs to back up the argument that the markets would fall and fall soon. Yes, I know that they will oneday crash again - everyone knows that - so isn't the article merely stating the obvious?

    The fundamentals might be a mess but they may just keeping QEing and printing for years to come - those in the markets will profit and those waiting for the big crash will lose out. When is the twelfth of never exactly?

  • 5. Chris

    (18 March 2010, 12:22PM)  Complain about this comment

    Yes agreed Bob,

    It's the markets rising when the blindingly obvious state of the economy doesnt back it up that concerns me.

    Beleive me, im in no hurry to sell out wildly, i bought in heavily during march/april/may 09 and im quite happy to leave the majority of those profits on the table, even if the market does drop again due to picking up/reinvesting the dividends. The longer the rally goes on, the further it would have to fall again before i'll ever make a loss. I did move some of those gains into slightly lower risk assets in Dec just to rebalance my portfolio somewhat. Im looking to perform another rebalancing act if the FTSE makes it back to 6000, maybe a bit larger this time. I'll never be out of the market entirely though.

    Happy investing and best of luck.

  • 6. DazO

    (18 March 2010, 12:46PM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic has been predicting the next phase down since the FTSE was around 4200 about 1 year ago. Its now up 25%.
    Trying to time the markets short term is a mugs game because short term the markets can be very irrational.
    Overall the market price is about right having regressed to its mean, sure it will crash again; when? no-one can accurately predict. Ignore anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.

  • 7. Denis H

    (18 March 2010, 12:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    I like this article. It presents clear information, based on historical fact, on how the markets behaved in similar economic climates in the past, both before and after major economic events. None of us know what will happen in the coming 2 to 4 years, but knowing how the markets reacted in similar circumstances in the past at least makes us aware of what could happen. It should also make us more vigilant when observing markets trends in the near term, i.e. with regard to selling out if the signals point to a repeat of past cycles.

  • 8. JPM, Zenium Ltd

    (18 March 2010, 12:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic

    Thanks to you and Tony Plummer for the charting. 'It's all just a little bit of history repeating'.

    that's why i'll never understand why Fed Chief, Ben Bernanke, is billed as "a student of the Great 1929 Depression". The big debt serial paper printer has learnt sweet f.a. from his study and like cretin Gov, Mervyne King, at the Bank of England should both be out of their jobs.

    The term 'Quantitive Easing' is fraud. Nobody has EVER printed their way to prosperity (see Zimbabwe). They're both following the central bwankers strategy for a full blown Banana Republic and it's a disgrace as well as an inditement of our corrupt countries neither have been sent to jail already.

    Here's to the heads-up on what's coming down the pipe and look forward to next weeks article with more filling in ;)

  • 9. Lerenard

    (18 March 2010, 01:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    I was interested in Dominic's view that interventionist policies only prolong the pain and inevitable correction that must follow. In social terms, the New Deal of the 30s reduced the pain and gave a whole section of society something to cling to. Doing nothing and leaving the markets alone is not an option. Enlightened regulation is the key for which we will need the best and brightest with Mandarin status to attract them away from the potentially more ruinous pusrsuits which we are now paying the price for.

  • 10. chris

    (18 March 2010, 01:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    One of your best articles. Rather than trying to say "why markets will crash in April" you look at the bigger picture. So perhaps 2008 was not a new 1929 but 2000 was.

  • 11. HB

    (18 March 2010, 01:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    We should not focus too much on the Dow Chart beyond year 1937/8 since those are the year WW2 was starting.

  • 12. DC

    (18 March 2010, 01:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    I think the bubble was in property prices rather than equities. If stocks weren't overpriced in 2007 then we can't really compare the situation to 1930.

    I think it is residential property markets rather than stock markets that are likely to follow a similar trend to the Wall St crash.

  • 13. Michael Lewis

    (18 March 2010, 02:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    No mention of Gold again?

    Chuck Norris doesn't buy gold to hedge against inflation. Gold buys Chuck Norris to hedge against inflation.

  • 14. Stocks72

    (18 March 2010, 03:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    This article is very interesting, however if we think now what will happen in "future "in the stock markets we cannot make money today. I am bullish about the stock markets, the only problem will be in 2012 when some private equity houses, banks and some large companies have to repay their huge debts. Until 2012 will not happen any thing in the stock markets. I am really sure about it.

  • 15. Derek

    (18 March 2010, 04:08PM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting article however I think that Dominic missed the elephant in the room, the difference between the 1930s and now is that people have a lot more to invest ie isa, pensions,savings etc and where is all that money going to go ? not in overpriced property, gold or cash

  • 16. Mr Sondhi

    (18 March 2010, 04:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic,

    Your last "Chinese Crash" graph is not only distorting the vertical axes but also the horizontal axes. You're comparing a 21 year period to a 9 year period. At least the others are roughly the same. Is this a legitimate comparison?

  • 17. Jim Bo

    (18 March 2010, 05:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree the article is interesting. The charts are scary. But, the old saying that history repeats its self is not true. Human behavior does repeat its self and often so does the idea of the self fulfilling proprocy. If enough people think stocks are over valued and a correction is due you will find a reason to fulfill that notion. There are reasons to be concerned and many of you know more about that than I do. But there are people who made a great deal of money in the 1930s and some who lost money in the booming 1920s.

  • 18. Stephen B

    (18 March 2010, 05:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    It's fairly clear the rally has been petering out over the last couple of months; most stock indexes have been trading sideways. When the lows are re-tested again, perhaps later this year, governments will again attempt a heroic stimulus, but with consumers de-leveraging, it won't work, and may even compound the problems, adding runaway inflation to the list of concerns. Buy gold, and buy some emerging markets, US and UK stocks are in for a rough ride.

  • 19. Royt

    (18 March 2010, 06:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic
    We need to know which sectors of the market, if any, went the other way. Eg gold, another commodity, certain countries, particular industries, small caps etc etc - surely something bucked the overall trend?

  • 20. Louis

    (18 March 2010, 07:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    What the author neglected to mention with regard to the United States in 1932, Japan and China were/are producer nations/export nations.

    Today the US is in the position of Britain in 1932 and Britain being the financial capital simply stopped buying imports and domestic jobs rose Britain a consumer nation out of depression over a decade before the US recovery from the depression.

    Consumers can stop buying and if they buy then start buying locally to take advantage of the multiplier effect. Producer nations have no choice but to produce and wait until there is a customer.

    I do see lows being retested and perhaps being broken, I see VAT Tax subsidies and currency manipulating export nations being forced to rebalance just as consumptive nations must rebalance through less government, higher interest rates, a declining dollar...the results should translate to continued decline in standard of living but continued job growth.

  • 21. Louis

    (18 March 2010, 07:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    There are huge imbalances in the world: currency reserves, treasury bonds meant to launder export surpluses and promote consumption VERSUS over-productive capacities from various subsidies and taxes to promote exports

    The US and states cant keep building large government, large military etc on shadow financial hedges, derivatives, credit default swaps and other multipliers on zero equity...nor can the world. This system is global and it is not regulated and not purged but a rebalancing is going to mean more than regulation and auditing, its going to be a global rebalancing.

    This system is unstable and it will rebalance. It really depends on whether we have fiscally responsible domestic policies or whether we continue rigging a corrupt government by democratic big government big corporate social policies or republica big government big corporations and foreign wars.

  • 22. Louis

    (18 March 2010, 07:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    If you dont believe that states are evoking the 10th amendment to ignore federal mandates and controls, if you dont believe municipalities are rebelling against states, if you dont believe that small companies and individuals are rebelling against taxes and immigration then you dont see the grass roots that will be maturing by the next election.

  • 23. Fraktal

    (18 March 2010, 08:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic,
    almost always when I read your recent articles I really don't know if I should kill myself now or wait for tomorrow...

  • 24. jj

    (18 March 2010, 09:49PM)  Complain about this comment

    The significant difference between the 1930's and now is that govt was smaller then and currencies were tied to gold,preventing unlimited currency expansion.Now,we are totally fiat,worldwide,so there is no limit on currency growth.Bernanke promised,and I believe him,that he would drop currency out of helicopters to prevent deflation.Seems to me that fiat currencies may be the riskiest holding today.Better to own some real assets(gold,commodities,stocks,real estate) than paper promises.

  • 25. PD

    (19 March 2010, 02:08AM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic

    If we are now at around "1937" vis a vis the wall st crash, what does that say about the gold price? Didn't gold peak around 1937?

  • 26. Stringydurge

    (19 March 2010, 02:44PM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree with Bob Roberts on moneyweek's bear stance.

    I have followed moneyweek for about 4 years, renting a property rather than buying and waited for the world crash of 2008. But I also sold the stocks & shares I bought in Jan09, in May09 following the MW's continuous warnings that e.g metal prices were only up due China restocking and that the markets in general were going to crash again any moment.
    Instead, shares and commodities have rocketed and sterling has bombed. Starting to think maybe I should also put my bear coat away and concentrate on finding investments and markets with long term value.

  • 27. Rob H

    (20 March 2010, 07:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    More articles describing the mechanics of the 1929 crash please, particularly the differences between now and then i.e. consider fundamentals as well as charts. With respect to gold as an 'insurance' against what the charts infer, if Dominique is reading this, how about holding gold in Euro's to reduce it's volatility (since Euro's make up 57% of the USD index) and especially protect from the fall in the USD price of gold if equities crash? It can be done several ways for an English person which i'm sure you'll be aware of (eg a long gold spread bet paired with a short Euro/dollar bet).

  • 28. IJ

    (22 March 2010, 11:34AM)  Complain about this comment

    "It's one reason it pays as an investor to think for yourself, rather than follow the crowd."

    But Dominic, too many people are taking this line for it to be considered "thinking for yourself." It's not a contrarian position. There are enough people around warning of an imminent crash and seeing bubbles everywhere for me to feel fairly comfortable about buying what I think are undervalued assets on weakness. Such warnings were few and far between amid the euphoria of 2006-07, or the late 90s in the US. When we stop seeing these warnings, or if and when Money Week ever turns bullish, that will probably be the time to sell.

  • 29. john grant

    (24 March 2010, 03:24AM)  Complain about this comment

    The similarities between 29 and 09 need to be evaluated in light of other metrics, notably the Shiller p/e 10. While it is conceivable that stocks may bounce along a middle road for 10 years, without collapsing, the ultimate engine of good returns on the market are earnings.

    Ergo, when the p/e 10 returns to 15, or perhaps lower, one is reasonably assured of making money in equities.

    In the mean time, it's quality stocks at reasonable prices, if there are any left; and short term corps.

  • 30. Spx

    (27 March 2010, 01:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    "that's why i'll never understand why Fed Chief, Ben Bernanke, is billed as "a student of the Great 1929 Depression". The big debt serial paper printer has learnt sweet f.a. from his study and like cretin Gov, Mervyne King, at the Bank of England should both be out of their jobs."

    "The term 'Quantitive Easing' is fraud. Nobody has EVER printed their way to prosperity (see Zimbabwe). They're both following the central bwankers strategy for a full blown Banana Republic and it's a disgrace as well as an inditement of our corrupt countries neither have been sent to jail already."

    Spot on analyis JPM, Zenium Ltd, I couldn't agree more.

    However if the punishment of "Bubbles" Greenspan, "Helicopter" Ben, Mervyne King and their accomplices were to fit the crime, they deserve to be "de Witted" a la Johan de Witt and his brother of the United Provinces in 1672.

  • 31. Davidh

    (27 September 2011, 09:28AM)  Complain about this comment

    Great looking at some of the early comments(re shedding bear overcoat, it can't be a bear rally anymore(?!) eating yer bearskin hat now eh?

    dow will be below 1000 by 2016 ...you read it here first!

  • 32. Davidh

    (27 September 2011, 09:31AM)  Complain about this comment

    Dow will be below 1000 by 2016. you read it here first!

    this crash is 3 times bigger in scale than 1929. there banks crashed, here whole countries are going to go bust!

Leave a comment

This will be the name displayed with your comment.

This helps us verify comments are genuine. It will not be displayed anywhere on the site and is stored confidentially.

Please keep your comment within 1,000 characters and relevant to the main topic. We encourage healthy debate, but we don't allow insults or bad language. Anything off topic or unpleasant, we'll remove. Enjoy the conversation! Thank you.

captcha To prevent spam-related comments please enter the characters shown in the 'Captcha' box to the left.

By leaving a comment you accept our terms and conditions.


FREE - MoneyWeek's daily investment emailJohn Stepek

Our free daily email, Money Morning, is an informative and enjoyable analysis of what's going on in the markets. Written by our Editor, John Stepek, and guest contributors.
Sign up FREE to Money Morning here.

>