How much further will stock markets fall?

By Dominic Frisby Nov 02, 2011

Dominic Frisby

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What with this week's horrendous stock market showing so far, I'd love to have some good news to report.

But I'm afraid I don't.

It looks extremely ugly out there. And I think we've got further falls ahead…

October was a fantastic month for markets

It doesn't feel like it, but October was actually the best month in the stock market since 1974. The S&P 500 was up by more than 200 points at one stage, rising from a trough of 1,075 to a peak of 1,292. In just two days we've given back 70 of them.

It's little wonder markets are so volatile. Nobody seems to know what's going on. We've got political leaders who are saying one thing one day, then u-turning the next, floundering and pandering with no clear strategy but popularity. We have shrinking economies, job losses, real incomes falling, credit contracting, insolvent, undercapitalised banks – huge deflationary forces, in other words.

But we also have quantitative easing (QE), zero interest rates, negative real rates, high and rising prices, and European leaders who have tried to solve the Greek debt crisis with a proposal for more debt and greater leverage – that is to say, huge inflationary forces.

What on earth are you supposed to do?

The sensible, simple thing, should be to stay in cash. But negative real interest rates (ie after adjusting for inflation) have killed that option. Maybe losing 5% a year against inflation isn't such a bad thing in this market, but it's not very appealing. So you're forced to speculate.

But a banking crisis, sovereign debt crisis and a potential global economic unravelling are hardly what you'd call the ideal economic conditions in which to be putting money to work. It is no easy task to navigate all of this and come out with your wealth intact, particularly if you are an investor who likes to hold for more than one week at a time. So what do the charts suggest?


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Could the S&P 500 revisit 666?

Looking at a chart of the S&P 500 over the last three years, the orange band marks the area from about 1,030 to 1,080. There is a lot of support in this zone.

S&P 500 indexI have also drawn some parallel black lines to show the trend we are now in. The October rally was nothing more than a bear market rally. The larger trend is down. I almost suspect that Greek prime minister, George Papandreou, identified the same trend on his stock charting software, then waited until the S&P 500 had hit the exact top of the range at 1,290, before his announcement that he was to hold a referendum on austerity, which launched this latest cascade in stocks.

We might break out of this range to the upside, of course. I hope we do. But I would expect another date with the orange zone and 1,050-1,100 first, perhaps before the end of the year. If we go through that orange zone, I see 950 as an area of support. If that doesn't hold, I really wouldn't be surprised to eventually see an encounter with our March 2009 low, the number 666, before this is over. Maybe more QE would prevent that however.

Back in March I said "we're in a bear market now", so it was time to sell rallies. Then in the summer I got a confirmed 'sell' signal. I see nothing to change any of that. My policy has been – and it's still the advice I am giving to anyone who asks – to sit on your pot of gold (and cash) and watch it all unravel from the sidelines.

Despite this, like a disgruntled football fan, I feel a certain amount of frustration. My star, wild card striker – my golden junior mining stocks – are not scoring the goals they were signed up to do. So much so that I sometimes feel like sacking them altogether.

And, second, even from my cheap seats somewhere at the back of the stand, I can see what needs to happen on the economic pitch. There's a bunch of broken crocks out there. It's obvious they're finished, so stop pumping them full of steroids and let them limp off. Then we can get some fresh legs on.

What I'm saying is, let those who are bust fail, let's all take the required hit, then we can start again with a clean sheet. We'll all be better off in the long run. But this isn't going to happen. Our leaders are too obsessed with intervention and re-election to let it happen. People expect them to act. If they do something and it doesn't work, they have to do more, not less.

More and more money is going to be found somehow and thrown down the black hole of southern Europe, and wherever the debt crisis pays its next visit. And, just as they do in Japan, zombies shall walk the earth (my colleague James Ferguson is covering this very topic in the next issue of MoneyWeek magazine, out on Friday. If you're not already a subscriber, get your first three copies free here). The question is, how much of this can our 'fiat' system of money take?

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Comments (32)

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  • 1. Hugh

    (02 November 2011, 11:01AM)  Complain about this comment

    When are you going to update us regarding the junior mining sector Dominic? Your thoughts are always apprciated. Its been a horrible year for the sector, with the CDNX put through the wood-cutter. Things are not looking good anytime soon for the juniors but as long as the right companies can get on with the business of getting their deposits proved up and selling on to majors I think we will all do well in the long run. With gold at these prices and very likely headed higher it hard not to see some respite on the horizon for the lonely junior resource investor. Surely some optimum buying time is on the horizon. Also I think the next QE boozooka is closer than ever both in the EU and the US, meaning we could be close to the latest dose of maximum fear. In the long run I'd rather own stocks in GOOD companies than cash because at least you own a tangible asset, right now they want to steal every last bit of cash, particularly savers cash.

  • 2. Brian Anderson

    (02 November 2011, 11:05AM)  Complain about this comment

    At last someone states the "bleeding obvious". Concise and correct. Brian A

  • 3. Steen Anderson

    (02 November 2011, 11:19AM)  Complain about this comment

    What is this more or less useless QE doesn't work? Would deflation be that bad? With the world's resources being pumped up in price, but not in value, if you see what I mean, there is only one way for demand to go and that's downwards. So less C, so less employment, less I (investment), which the Uk economy is crying out for, and which provides multiplier effects and has a greater influence on employment than C. Negative returns on savings. more and more damage is being done to savers, who are in the long run the life blood of the economy. Deflation should take its course, the economists can go hang they haven't been right so far. maybe then 12 years down the road we can start rebuilding on a sound financial and demand basis when all this debt and funny money has been squeezed out of the system. Could someone analyse this in detail in an article in the magazine in the near future please. Thanks

  • 4. kaj362

    (02 November 2011, 12:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    Who loves ya, Frisby? Keep on telling em how it is! If only we had a bit more straight talking in the Treasury...

  • 5. Martin G

    (02 November 2011, 01:43PM)  Complain about this comment

    The outcomes we are seeing are exactly as one can predict from our daft politico-economic system where "popularity" is all, and increasingly short-term economics is dictated by politics. Labour in the West is uncompetitive and where we have economic advantage it is through high -tech, high productivity manufacturing, whose know-how is being transferred eastwards, and whose rewards are concentrated in the hands of a few. This is not a criticism, but an observation of how the system works. Man ought to be inventive enough to change it for the better - economics and money are not dictated by laws of nature

  • 6. JL

    (02 November 2011, 02:40PM)  Complain about this comment

    Given the doldrums of junior and most gold miners, how do you explain the 8% plus rise in Randgold this morning to new 52 week highs? Why just them? Any thoughts?

  • 7. mark daws

    (02 November 2011, 05:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    wonder ifyou can answer a quick question Dominic

    when you say to stick with cash and gold, do you mean cash under your mattress or in the bank vaults (well points of light actually)?

  • 8. bee

    (02 November 2011, 05:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    To counter QE MW recommends buying gold. There's something I can't get my head around and I'd be interested to hear people's comments or perhaps MW could do an article. Ok you buy the gold ETF, PHAU, which is denominated in USD. I am unable to buy PHGP, gold denominated in GBP. Most brokers simply convert to PHAU so I'm told. So for example, you decide to invest £10,625, which means you buy 100 at $170 ($17,000 = £10,625 using today's rate of approx $1.6 for every £1). The price rises to $190 so you decide to sell. From the procedes you get $19,000, but the exchange rate has not moved in your favour and so you get $1.8 for every £1. Therefore, your investment is now worth £10,555. You've lost £70 even though the price of the gold has gone up approximately 12%. It seems that you are at the mercy of exchange rates and not the price of gold. You might as well just speculate and buy/sell some dollars. Am I missing something here?

  • 9. ALANBRECK

    (02 November 2011, 06:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    bee,
    Yes, you are missing an important distinction. An ETF is a share product that tracks the price of a commodity. When you buy a gold ETF, you are buying paper shares not metal. You can buy the metal at BullionVault for sterling as I and many others have done. The bullion is your own property, stored in vaults in London, Zurich or New York as you choose. Check it out online.

  • 10. bee

    (02 November 2011, 06:39PM)  Complain about this comment

    ALANBRECK,

    Thanks for this. So if you invest, say £1,000, with Bullion Vault you pay £8 commission (0.8%). Then you pay £1.20 (0.12%) per year for storage. I guess there's no stamp duty to pay at the point of purchase? How do you pay the storage fees, especially for larger holdings, do you need to have excess cash in your account?

  • 11. ALANBRECK

    (02 November 2011, 07:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    bee,
    Unlike an ETF there is no stamp duty on purchase.
    Yes, you need to put some cash into your account to pay the monthly vault storage fee. You can transfer by a standing order each month or top up as-and-when.
    The website has all the answers to many other questions you might well ask.

  • 12. bee

    (02 November 2011, 09:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    ALANBRECK,

    One could use spreadbetting as a way of playing gold, don't you think? You save approximately 1.6 % on dealing costs (compared to Bullion Vault, 0.8% x 2; once to open trade, once to close) because the spread is so tight. With a spreadbet you wouldn't have to pay storage fees, minimal though they are. Sure you have to pay financing charges of approximately 3% p.a. but on a £10,000 position you only have to pay a small margin + a bit extra to take volatility into account so the position isn't closed, so £350 would do it, but you'd have to monitor this. The rest of the money, i.e. £9,650 could be invested elsewhere which should cover the financing cost. I'm just thinking out loud here.

  • 13. Peter Kellow

    (02 November 2011, 09:26PM)  Complain about this comment

    "The sensible, simple thing, should be to stay in cash. But negative real interest rates (ie after adjusting for inflation) have killed that option. Maybe losing 5% a year against inflation isn't such a bad thing in this market, but it's not very appealing. "

    Dominic, that 5% inflation, is SHOPPING BASKET inflation. How much of your wealth and that of your readers goes on your shopping basket? Asset prices are falling and assets are likely to be more important to you than the price of Corn Flakes or bananas.

    So your arguments are against cash are bogus. Keep your money in cash and buy when assets fall.

    The only danger with cash is that the bank holding it will go belly up, so don't keep more than the guaranteed amount of 80K in any one bank group and put the rest in National Savings

  • 14. Colin Selig-Smith

    (02 November 2011, 10:33PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bee,

    Imagine the Euro collapses.

    Greece vote get stuffed, German and French banks collapse as a result, CDS calls trigger UK and US banking crises. Italian bond yields hit double digits and they follow Greece out. In the resulting rush from the 80 trillion bond market to the 180 billion gold market and the resulting spike in price it turns out that the gold ETFs are highly levered with many owning little to no real gold, redemptions rocket and only the fist to demand physical will actually receive delivery.

    Imagine it all falls down in a pile of Marks, Lira, Drachma, Pesetas. All very unlikely of course but I'd want some gold close by if not at hand. Perhaps even some 454 gram bars of Sterling silver or receipts thereof.

    Why do you think the price of gold moves? Gold price in dollars goes up because the dollar has fallen in value. No?

  • 15. bee

    (02 November 2011, 10:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    You make a good point. Although, if Europe does implode you could make the same argument with Bullion Vault, how well positioned is it to give customers physical delivery of their gold? They assure investors that gold is physically stored in their vaults, which I'm sure is the case. However, when things really go down the tubes how often do we find out that those "secure" investments/deposits are anything but. All the rules seem to go out the window. A very large broker which has just gone bankrupt has allegedly used customers deposits to gamble on sovereign debt. These accounts were supposed to be segregated! So surely the only 100% secure option would be to have the physical gold in your hand. However, physical gold bars trade at a premium of at least 5% to the spot price, then when it comes to sell you would lose another 5%. I guess brokers have to mark it up to make their commission.

  • 16. Chester

    (03 November 2011, 08:46AM)  Complain about this comment

    Peter (13) says it like it is, and facts support the analysis. Headline inflation will fall as speculative commodity money flees, despite BOE stupidity

    QE hasn't worked so far, and never will. The market does not need more liquidity, it needs debt destruction and asset values reverted to mean. That includes gold, which is falling with both stock and commodity prices (as only a very few have forecast despite the wave of gold mania)

    Park cash in safe places and buy assets when deflation has done the nescessary, including gold. Only then will you need them as real asset price inflation takes off

  • 17. Mark H

    (03 November 2011, 11:20AM)  Complain about this comment

    Bee/ALANBRECK

    I must correct a number of points.First there is no stamp duty on ETF's.Second, the PH in these ETF's stands for PHYSICAL you actually buy physical gold held in bank vaults.Third it makes no difference whether you buy PHGP ( operated in GBP ) or PHAU ( operated in USD ).PHGP is not currency hedged. Imagine you buy gold in PHAU and it doubles in value but at the same time the USD halves in value against GBP. When you sell your PHAU and convert the proceeds into GBP you will not have made a bean. I prefer to work with PHGP as it is easier to see GBP changes in gold. Just think of gold as the ultimate currency.If it goes up in USD terms simply because the USD has fallen in value it has not really gone up at all and this will be reflected in its price in other more stable currencies.I hope above helps.

  • 18. Hugh

    (03 November 2011, 11:34AM)  Complain about this comment

    @Peter and Chester - The ole deflation / inflation argument eh? I agree its a difficult hypothesis to comprehend, but I have this to say - you can have deflation and inflation occur simultaneously. Presently we have deflation in credit based assets (houses and speed boats say) and inflation in the monetary supply which is leading to a rising price of commodities gold and oil say. This is the nature of central bank induced bubble economics. They generate bubbles in one asset class while another bubble is deflating. Right now money printing is the only tool central bankers have to pay down the debts of the west, inflation / stagflation across the board will be the end result, history has demonstrated this. My advice is is than not to hold the cash of government's hellbent of inflating their debts away through the printing press. Don't be fooled by the myopic views of the deflationists.

  • 19. Bee

    (03 November 2011, 12:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    17. Mark H,

    Thanks for your comments. I was asking ALANBRECK about stamp duty on purchases of gold through BullionVault, not the ETFs PHAU and PHGP.

    When you say " it makes no difference whether you buy PHGP ( operated in GBP ) or PHAU ( operated in USD )". But surely it does, as you go on to say "PHGP is not currency hedged. Imagine you buy gold in PHAU and it doubles in value but at the same time the USD halves in value against GBP. When you sell your PHAU and convert the proceeds into GBP you will not have made a bean."

  • 20. DW

    (03 November 2011, 01:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    Hugh is right. Whatever may happen in the short term, the final result of central bank money printing (on the massive scale that we have seen) cannot be deflationary.

    It follows that a holding of physical gold, far from being a symptom of swivel-eyed insanity, is a sensible hedge against the inflationary storm that must eventually come.

  • 21. ALANBRECK

    (03 November 2011, 04:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    MarkH/bee,

    The gold held by PHAU is not allocated to the purchaser as it is in BullionVault. I quote from PHAU's website:
    "PHAU is intended to provide investors with a return equivalent to movements in the gold spot price less fees."
    Note that one is an "investor" in PHAU - not a purchaser, and that the return is an "equivalent". The metal is not allocated to the investor but belongs to the bank which operates the ETF. If the bank hits trouble there will be prior calls on its bullion collateral. I prefer to own the metal myself, and pay a fee to have it securely stored on my behalf.
    I quote from BullionVault's website:
    "BullionVault does not provide unallocated gold. It is held as the outright property of the service's users."



  • 22. ALANBRECK

    (03 November 2011, 05:21PM)  Complain about this comment

    Mark H,

    Unallocated gold is a bookkeeping device by which a bank or other enterprise provides you with notional gold. The gold is a liability to you on their balance sheet. It is synonymous with gold 'accounts' and its holders are unsecured creditors.

    This arises from an important legal difference between the terms under which banks look after their customers' valuables. Unallocated gold is formally a deposit, which becomes the bank's property and its liability to you as a depositor. The alternative agreement style - known as allocated - obliges the bank to hold your gold as your outright property, under a custodial or safe-keeping contract.

  • 23. ALANBRECK

    (03 November 2011, 05:24PM)  Complain about this comment

    Mark H,
    (continued)
    Under the law a liquidator returns your formal property to you if a bank fails. But where it is your asset - like unallocated gold (not your property) they almost certainly cannot return it to you. Instead you would be in a pool of unsecured creditors waiting to see what cash the liquidators might raise in selling all the bank's assets. This sale would include non-performing loans, derivative and bond portfolios, and whatever stock of gold you might think was backing your unallocated gold account.

    This is because it is the law that in liquidation no general creditor can be given preference over another. So the important thing with a private bullion reserve is to not be a creditor, but an owner.

  • 24. Mark H

    (04 November 2011, 03:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    ALENBRECK

    I am afraid i must correct you again.PHAU is physical allocated gold.It is held by the bank as custodian and as such does not face the problems you envisage.The details of this security states:
    PHAU is backed by physical allocated metal held by the Custodian (HSBC Bank USA N.A.). All physical gold metal held with HSBC conforms to the London Bullion Market Association’s (LBMA) rules for Good Delivery.
    if you go to the ETFS web site you can see the full detaild
    The management for this ETF is 0.39% per year which is far cheaper than Bullion Vault.
    The question you could ask is 'how do you know the gold is actually in the bank vault' but the same goes for Bullion Vault.If you have these concerns you will not be happy unless you actually own the gold and keep it under you bed !

  • 25. Mark H

    (04 November 2011, 03:43PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bee
    My comment re Stamp duty on ETF's was in response to ALENBREK's comment No.11 to you which stated that ...Unlike an ETF there is no stamp duty on purchase...This is simply incorrect and I did not wish you or other readers to be misled. I hope this is helpful info

  • 26. Mark H

    (04 November 2011, 03:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bee
    Re my previous comment on PHAU vs PHGP.I think i did not explain my self well.
    There is no difference in these two ETF's for a GBP investor as should the price of gold double in USD terms but the USD halve in value to the GBP: when you sell your PHAU ( which has doubled in USD terms ) you will not have made a bean when you convert the USD back to GBP whilst if you had instead invested in PHGP you will find the value of your investment has not moved ( because in GBP terms the value of gold has not moved).Either way you will not have made a jot.Hope this helps

  • 27. ALANBRECK

    (04 November 2011, 08:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    Mark H/bee,
    Thank youMark H. I stand corrected. There is no stamp duty on an ETF. I have checked out the conditions of PHAU/PHGB and (after some digging) I find that they state:
    " An allocated account is an account held with a custodian in a customer’s name; the account evidences that uniquely identifiable bars of bullion have been "allocated" to the customer and are segregated from other metal held in the Custodian’s vault. The customer has full title to the Bullion held in the allocated account."
    I also gather that PHAU is held by Morgan Chase Bank in USA whereas PHGB is held by HSBC Bank in London.

  • 28. ALANBRECK

    (04 November 2011, 09:09PM)  Complain about this comment

    Mark H/bee
    (continued)
    So far as I can ascertain, the above two and BullionVault are the only purveyors of allocated bullion accounts.
    The point I want to make was that one should not invest in an unallocated bullion account where the bullion belongs to the bank that holds it, and not to the customer. I think we all have good reason not to trust the solvency (or indeed the veracity) of banks.

  • 29. Mark H

    (04 November 2011, 10:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    ALENBREK

    The point you make is a good one.The whole reason I am investing in gold is to protect me in case of extreme adversity.There is little point in investing in a gold fund if it could fail to perform in such circumstances. I would stay clear of ETFs with unallocated accounts or those based on paper ( derivative ) trades even though they may offer lower annual charges.

  • 30. bee

    (05 November 2011, 11:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    PHAU, PHGP and Bullion Vault all hold physical gold.

    PHGP charges 0.39% per year.

    One thing I would note is that Bullion Vault charges 0.12% (0.01% per month) storage fee and insurance per year. However, on the website it says:

    "Whether you choose to store in one vault or spread your holdings across all three, you'll get the cheapest storage rate in the world: only 0.01% per month ($4 min.) including insurance."

    Therefore, you'll be paying a minimum of $48 (£30) per year. This means that you need to hold a decent amount to offset these fees. If you have £1,000 worth of gold you're effectively paying 3% fees per year. I just thought I'd point this out to investors who only wish to allocate a small portion of their portfolio to gold as it's something to consider.

    With Bullion Vault you would need to hold £8,000 + worth of gold to get the fees below 0.4% per year.

  • 31. SGM

    (07 November 2011, 01:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    Hugh 18

    Please can you clarify the last sentence of your post: I am sitting on a lot of cash earning nothing, worrying about inflation especially if it picks up with QE and Europe's woes, but can't make a decision on whether to top up my FTSE 100 investments (valuations are low and companies are in good shape but how far will this bear market go?), stay in cash, buy gold, or invest in a central London prime property flat. My stockbroker suggests investing in defensive stocks in tranches, National Grid Index Linked Bond and Gold Bullion Lyxor Fund (ETF which holds physical bullion and price tracks gold price). Comment from anyone most welcome.

  • 32. SGM

    (07 November 2011, 01:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    To add to SGM 31

    I am able to take a 2-5 year view on investments, the aim being to preserve (and increase assets if possible) rather than gamble them for short term gains.

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