How much further will markets fall?

By Dominic Frisby Oct 05, 2011

Dominic Frisby

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Where – and when – is this all going to end?

That's the question I'm asking myself.

We seem to be in full-blown capitulation mode. But capitulations do not last forever. Sooner or later – much like November 2008 or March 2009 – the prices on offer will be too compelling and buyers will come in.

But, again, the wretched question is when?

The US stock market looks ever more like Japan's

This has happened several times over the past few months. I look at a stock and think, 'ooh, actually, that's holding up quite well', so I don't sell it.

Then somebody else comes along, sees that same stock that's holding up well and thinks: 'Crikey. I better sell that while I can still get something for it'. So they do, it slides, and I've got one more dog in my portfolio.

And it's not just happening with individual companies. Gold, for example, was up on Monday and again yesterday morning, while broader stock markets were down. That's positive, I thought. Then along comes Mr Trader who thinks, 'Look, gold hasn't fallen, I'll sell that'. And the colour red spreads across my screen.

Anyway, moan over. Here are some thoughts on the current state of the market. There are so many interesting things going on from the stealth slide of the pound against the dollar (as predicted a few weeks back: What does the future hold for the pound? What a genius I am) from above $1.60 to $1.53, to the crumbling commodity markets. I should say I am getting a lot of conflicting signals, so some of my observations are bound to be contradictory.

The remarkable correlation between Japan's bear market, which began in 1990, and the US's, which began in 2000, continues. This chart shows the US since 1990 in green. In red, we have Japan since 1990, moved forward 11 years. Both are measured in US dollars so the unit of account is the same.

The green continues to follow the red. Japan has plotted the future for us. If we continue on this route – and the 'it-is-up-to-government-to-save-everyone' attitude of policy-makers is keeping us entrenched on it - this current bear phase is probably only 25% done in terms of duration and magnitude. What a horrible thought.

US S&P500 vs Japan Nikkei stock indices

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see at least some kind of relief rally, perhaps starting later in the month.

It should be noted that for all the carnage, US markets have held up comparatively well. We had the initial July to early August capitulation. Then a late August and September which saw some volatile range trading but no confirmed break in either direction.

The magic 1,100 mark on the S&P 500 – the August low – was briefly broken yesterday, but it rebounded and markets closed well above at 1,123. So, although we are near the lows of the year so far, we are still above the lows of 2010 (1,010).

It's certainly been rather more impressive than the once-stellar DAX of Germany. As well as suffering from the weakening euro, it is already below the lows of 2010 (5,500). But it too is just managing to stay above its August lows.

Germany's DAX stock index

So here's the big question for all markets: are we going to break out of this range to the up or to the downside? Yesterday morning I would have said to the downside. By the evening I was a bit more positive. That's how flip-floppy I feel about the whole thing – and judging by the market action in general, I'm not alone in that.

Junior miners have been hammered

Now we consider Canada's CDNX, the composite of Toronto's main board and its Venture exchange: home to so many of my once-beloved, now-despised junior mining companies. Highly geared to metals and energy, when the CDNX rises, it soars. But when it falls, it plummets – and kicks you in the face on the way down. The August lows have decidedly not held and the 2010 lows were breached yesterday.

Canada's CDNX index

Our only hope for salvation is some support here and perhaps even the proverbial 'V' bottom. I'm not banking on it. But we need some relief pretty fast, otherwise we're going to be looking down the barrel of the 2008 lows before you know it.

There are some things to be positive about. Gold, for all the dismissals it has received, is still up $200 this year. (Silver is more or less flat). But the COT report for both – which shows the commitments of traders on the futures exchange – looks extremely bullish.

In the case of silver, it's as bullish as it's looked since 2009, in that the open interest is low. Broadly speaking, that means there are now plenty more potential buyers to come into this market. I even bought a small amount of silver last week, something I haven't done in a long time.

I don't go with the argument that gold was in a bubble. Overbought, yes, extended too. But bubble? No.

A bubble is uranium in 2007. Uranium was the silver bullet that was going to save us from our looming energy crisis. Every company that had even the vaguest association with uranium went skywards. That hasn't happened with gold. Not yet.

I still think we've got that ahead of us.


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Gold, guns, and nutters

Gold needs to become the currency of last resort. There are signs that it is trying to do this and decouple from the broader indices, but every time this happens it gets hammered. The currency of last resort remains, for now, the US dollar. That's where people are fleeing to.

Kyle Bass is the Texan investor who made a fortune in the sub-prime chaos. Now he's bet on the collapse of entire countries, having bought credit default swaps on Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal and, interestingly, Switzerland. In terms of macro calls, he's got the big ones very right. Describing him in the Sunday Times, Michael Lewis writes:

As he laid out his ideas, I had an experience I've often had while listening to people who seem perfectly certain about uncertain events. One part of me was swept away by his argument and began to worry the world was about to collapse; the other part suspected he might be nuts.

"That's great", I said, already thinking about the flight I needed to catch. "But even if you're right, what can any normal person do about it?"

He stared at me as if he'd just seen an interesting sight: the world's stupidest man.

"What do you tell your mother when she asks you where to put her money?" I asked.

"Guns and gold", he said simply. So he was nuts.

"But not gold futures", he said. "You need physical gold."

He opened his desk drawer, hauled out a giant gold brick and dropped it on the desk. "We've bought a lot of this stuff."

Now the above is quoted out of context – it's clear that Lewis regards Bass highly. But I'm glad I have Bass as company. And that we're both still seen as nuts.

My strategy remains to stick with gold, cash – and some ugly-looking gold stocks.

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There are many methods used by stock-pickers to gauge whether the stock markets are cheap or expensive. But how do you know which one to use? Cris Sholto Heaton explains how best to judge the value of shares.

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Comments (12)

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  • 1. David

    (05 October 2011, 10:46AM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi Dominic,

    Would you know the answer to this question. Trying to work out when to buy some gold physical.

    If bank of England did qe2 this week.

    Would this cause gold priced in £'s to rise considerably even though gold in dollars might fall in the short term with no qe3 at the moment.

    Has gold priced in £s ever gone a different direction to gold priced in dollars?

    Thank you

  • 2. Jack Adams

    (05 October 2011, 10:53AM)  Complain about this comment

    The guns part of this argument has worried me for some time and still worries me. The social instability created by the current meltdown in Europe is very dangerous, and whilst we are somewhat better placed political interpretation of the London riots seems badly flawed.

    When an American, a Texan at that, is arguing for investing in guns then in that society, angry, homeless armed civilians is a nightmare scenario. These concerns do argue for two positions; 1. Buy gold and 2. Have a plane ticket ready. (just in case)

  • 3. tony

    (05 October 2011, 11:17AM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi dominic
    Yes the US looks like Japan but there is a difference. When Japan crashed people generally had a lot of savings. which are now invested in the country's huge govt. deficit at near zero interest. You could say the Japanese are paying a voluntary tax.
    In the US the deficit is 15Trn the opulation (say 300m) - that's 50,000 per inhabitant. I don't believe Americans have that amount of money, so a lot of the debt will remain external. External investors will not continue to accept near zero interest

  • 4. Jack

    (05 October 2011, 11:53AM)  Complain about this comment

    What we are seeing is Bill Bonner's prediction that deflation will come first to ruin the inflationists, followed by inflation to ruin the deflationists. So commodities and commodity stocks fall. The big question is, when do we sell our Gilts and switch horses to gold miners? What signals and signs should we been looking out for on the way, so that we can judge when we are approaching that juncture?

  • 5. Peter

    (05 October 2011, 11:56AM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic,

    Your US/Japan stocks chart could knock MSW's Chart of the Century off its perch.

  • 6. Kojak

    (05 October 2011, 12:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi Dominic. I really like your articles as I get the feeling that you are a real guy telling us exactly how you see it. There is too much that ordinary Joe cannot know and you are nearer the market than most of us. The 'madmen/women' have objectives that are contrary to our own and even they do not have total control.
    Your comparison US/Japan graph is very interesting. The world is in such a mess financially that several years will probably be needed and perhaps a really catastrophic event needs to occur before most blocs see they have a common aim.
    The Global World can now be seen as leading us to Armageddon because we can no longer think about our interests alone but have to consider and often fork out for others e.g. Greece and maybe Italy et al.
    Governments do not want gold to rise dramatically so it may take a catastrophic event to trigger a big rise in gold (and therefore silver).
    Any news on Excellon?

  • 7. peter ludgate

    (05 October 2011, 04:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    I have sold my house and my business, my worry is what to do with the money ? where to put it so it wont disappear. I had dinner with some money boys and after an in depth debate felt like slitting my wrists as they feel it is much much worse than anyone seems to accept. 2012 will be a very interesting year. Bill Drummond said ultimately money's only real value is to burn to keep warm!

  • 8. Colin Selig-Smith

    (05 October 2011, 09:12PM)  Complain about this comment

    Money vs Stuff.

    You know how it works, and when it comes to money it has to be the USD.
    You know it all has to tank before the politicos really panic and put the presses on overdrive.
    You know that they will do this.
    You know that when money is increasing in value *everything* else, all stuff goes down in price. Stocks, commodities, property, you name it.

    This is real simple stuff. So there is no safe investment asset class right now. Only money.

  • 9. TomJefs

    (06 October 2011, 08:33AM)  Complain about this comment

    Just another cycle to long-term viewers.

  • 10. James

    (06 October 2011, 12:03PM)  Complain about this comment

    the charts are always fascinating, but what would be really useful is if you started to run some valuation screens on the major markets/ sectors... ie when should we buy?

  • 11. marcus

    (06 October 2011, 06:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    good right up one guy worth reading .

  • 12. Simon

    (10 October 2011, 09:17AM)  Complain about this comment

    In Japan, falling stock markets led to falling bank profits, led to falling lending, led to falling house prices, led to falling rents, led to falling wage demands led to deflation. But our banks arent being allowed to go bust, so house prices and inflation remain high.

    If only our government could understand the best way to get the economy would be to RAISE interest rates. If you take property prices down, you can lower inflation. Savings are and income then become worth more, just as in Japan. And Japan is not doing too badly these days (natural disasters aside).

    Instead our government thinks that by artificially inflating asset values with low rates, and by printing money, and allowing runaway inflation, the economy will survive. I would argue the opposite. Inflation is becoming the cause of problems. Keeping mortgage payments artificially low is pointless when you erode their value with inflation.

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