Why Britain's property market is as dangerous as Spain's

By MoneyWeek editor-in-chief Merryn Somerset Webb Jun 06, 2011

Merryn Somerset-Webb

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When I was a child, we went to Spain most summers. We flew to Malaga, then we drove along the coast to Velez Malaga, turned inland and headed into the mountains to a tiny village just beyond a slightly less tiny village called Periana. It took three hours and destroyed the average hire car. These days, the flight is more trying than it used to be. But the drive takes an hour and, on last week's visit, we lost just one hubcap.

However, it wasn't just the car rental bill that surprised us on our return this year. It was the remnants of the property bubble. The fact that much of the Costa del Sol is an overdeveloped hellhole is hardly news, but I wasn't expecting the signs of mania to have moved so far inland. The road to Periana is almost entirely flanked by flats and mini villas. Most are half-finished: some have reinforcing rods sticking out of top storeys, suggesting there once was more to come; others are windowless; and more are completed but deserted.

It is hard to see how the market will clear. If Spain left the euro, the new peseta collapsed, and impoverished pensioners from the UK could pour in to survive in the cheap warmth, you might just match supply and demand. But failing an expectation of that, you would have to have a particularly high-risk tolerance to invest in today's Torre del Mar.

In the UK, things aren't quite so obvious. There are no half-built blocks, no empty resorts, no billboards outside ageing developments promising 100% financing.

At the same time, buy-to-let investors are thrilled by the fact that tight credit and high prices mean the number of people being forced to rent rather than buy is rising fast. According to the Halifax, 64% of renters aged 20-45 do not think they will ever be able to buy. They can't come up with the right deposits or persuade mortgage lenders that they are a good bet (67% see little point in even applying). So rents are rising, and we are apparently soon to be a 'nation of renters' – a state of affairs that will make those cashed up and clever enough to buy the right portfolios of flats very rich indeed.


Lead indicators for Britain's economy

Gold/silver ratio:
A warning for the markets
Where to next for
UK house prices?
Is Britain's inflation
about to take off?


But this is, of course, nonsense.

The truth is that buying to let in the UK now is no less dangerous than doing so in Spain. The bulls are keen on pointing out that gross yields currently come in at about 7%.

But while that sounds nice, it is pretty pathetic. Take off maintenance, voids and bad tenants and odds are that the average net yield is well below 3%. Take inflation at around 4% into account and the real gross yield is, at best, 3% – making the real net yield almost definitely negative.

When prices are rising, that might not matter to an investor. When they are falling, it has to. And, while bare reinforcing rods aren't exactly the norm in the Home Counties, UK house prices are falling and will continue to do so.

The key point – and the one that investors should keep firmly in mind – is that the UK base rate at 0.5% is not normal. It was never this low in the 18th century, in the 19th century or indeed in the 20th century. Up until our recent crisis, the floor for rates was always 2%. It has also always hovered a couple of percent above inflation and that is, eventually, where it will return to.

When it starts to do so, mortgages will become less affordable, the forced selling will finally begin, and prices will fall. A report just out from Morgan Stanley has house prices down another 10% by the end of next year (so, 15-18% if you include inflation).


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This isn't good news for landlords. Not only are they likely to make capital losses, but falling prices mean we won't be a nation of renters for long. When prices fall to the right level (or overshoot on the way down) and credit returns, renters will turn into buyers and we'll be back to our usual status – as a nation of frantic property-ladder climbers.

When will that be? Back in the mid-1990s, the average gross yield was around 9.5%. That may not sound much above the 7% being claimed today, but it is. Then, consumer price index inflation was 1.6%, so the real gross yield was not 3% but more than 8%. That's the kind of number would-be investors should be waiting for if they really want to catch the bottom of the market.

● On another matter, I wrote here recently about the difficulty of getting exposure to a basket of Asian currencies. However, if you aren't bothered about the basket bit and just want to hold renminbi, there is a simple way to do so. Go to the Bank of China (in London, Birmingham, Manchester or Glasgow) and open a sterling account and a renminbi account. Then, put money into the former and transfer it to the latter. Now you hold renminbi. I haven't tried this myself, but am assured by the Bank of China that it is very straightforward.

• This article was first published in the Financial Times

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  • 1. Alex

    (06 June 2011, 03:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    Merryn, lets assume I'm Mr Boomer, me and my wife have done our ISA every year for over a decade and seen little in the way of a return, I've just turned 55 and can take a lump sum from my pension, if I liquidate my ISA crammed with the wonderful likes of BP, Lloyds TSB ( say no more ), I can buy a 3 bed house in the regional capital in CASH that I can rent for £900 a month.

    All of you calculations are well and good, they make alot of assumptions though, alot of uncertainties, if I buy that house for cash I have a solid, expensive to replace asset in a part of town where prices will always be high because you can walk/ride to work, and there are plenty of green spaces and nice pubs.

    Can you see why most houses in my area sell for cash and don't appear of Mr Stepeks much cited mortgage approvals index, and why it might be perfectly sensible for BTL to be very very attractive still?

  • 2. Stuart Law - Assetz

    (06 June 2011, 04:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    Well done Alex, you verbalised exactly why so many investors are moving away from speculation in financial instruments and going to Real Assets ready for the inflation decade and demanding real returns.

    BTW Moneyweek, to get net yield you do not deduct 50%+ from 12 months times monthly rent, you deduct 35% maximum for voids, management charges, service charges and repairs etc. We get around 8% on everything we source and net yields are 5-6%

  • 3. L N Stewart

    (06 June 2011, 05:22PM)  Complain about this comment

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/verbalize

    The second definition of verbalise at the Oxford dictionary link above may be of interest to readers. (Sorry, Stuart. Couldn't resist!)

  • 4. Merryn

    (06 June 2011, 05:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    Stuart, you are a great deal more clever in your investing than any of the buy to let investors i ever speak to - they are almost all losing money every month...

  • 5. The Buy2Let King

    (06 June 2011, 05:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    Thanks to a culmination of Government policies ZIRP, high population growth, moratorium on home building, high housing benefits etc (which are most unlikely to change) B2L is still very very attractive.

    Even if there are better investments people stick to what they know makes money. I know several people, including myself who have become 'financially secure' (i.e. no need to work any more) thanks to B2L. I know no one who has attained similar status via other investments.

    I think Money Week are just sore that they have missed out on the investment opportunity of a live time by perpetually being bearish on UK housing.

    It's still not to late. I sure Stuart Law will be happy to help you find some good investments.

  • 6. ontheotherhand

    (06 June 2011, 05:37PM)  Complain about this comment

    Here's some soft data for you which takes the asking prices per property type per London area and divides by the rental price to get a finger in the air gross yield.

    http://www.londonpropertywatch.co.uk/average_rental_yield.html

    What do people think of the 5.5% which seems to be the median gross yield there? (not taking into account stamp duty on the way in and agency fees on the way out)

    "I buy that house for cash I have a solid, expensive to replace asset in a part of town where prices will always be high because you can walk/ride to work, and there are plenty of green spaces and nice pubs. "

    Did the prices carry on going up from 1989 to 1995 or are prices only solid sometimes?

  • 7. Ellen

    (06 June 2011, 06:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    One of the most embarrassing quotes Gordon Brown must have made was "No more boom and bust". Brian Cowen, in Ireland, similarly, is derided for his declaration "Property will get a soft landing."

    The UK economy, like Irelands, relies too heavily on property speculation and I don't believe there will be a soft landing here either. Autonomy over sterling to enable an environment of low interest with a round of QE delayed the UK process. But why invest in falling assets, be they to live in or to rent out. BoE is eternally under pressure to raise interest rates on several fronts. Austerity and inflation is taking spending power from almost everyone. Sterling is losing its value with BoE loose monetary policy.

    Somebody in central bank or government is going to have to make bold decisions on monetary policy and strengthen an absurdly weak sterling and it can only mean one thing for the high value, low turnover housing market. No soft landing.

  • 8. The Buy2Let King

    (06 June 2011, 06:53PM)  Complain about this comment

    7. Ellen

    The soft landing has already happened (2010).

    The CEBR (where proper economists work :-) say prices will now start to drift upwards again.

  • 9. Tom Archer

    (06 June 2011, 07:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    People like Stuart Law and Alex are living in la-la land - they constantly delude themselves with flawed maths about renting that airbrush out the negative elements and make no attempt to analyse what real people can actually afford to pay.

    House prices in the UK, by any sober analysis, have risen too high. We have become used to those in the fifth quintile of household income needing a state bail-out for their housing costs - but at an immense expense to the taxpayer that the coalition is pledged to rein in.

    Do the maths and you can see that those in the fourth quintile are also now priced out; and that the upcoming generation are mostly squatting with their parents as a result.

    Those in govt. will soon realise the imperative to embark on the mother of home building programs..

  • 10. Tom Archer

    (06 June 2011, 07:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    People like Stuart Law and Alex are living in la-la land - they constantly delude themselves with flawed maths about renting that airbrush out the negative elements and make no attempt to analyse what real people can actually afford to pay.

    House prices in the UK, by any sober analysis, have risen too high. We have become used to those in the fifth quintile of household income needing a state bail-out for their housing costs - but at an immense expense to the taxpayer that the coalition is pledged to rein in.

    Do the maths and you can see that those in the fourth quintile are also now priced out; and that the upcoming generation are mostly squatting with their parents as a result.

    Those in govt. will soon realise the imperative to embark on the mother of home building programs..

  • 11. Ellen

    (06 June 2011, 07:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Buy2let. Unlike physics, economics is not an exact science.

    However it is generally safe to say that while interest rates are low, the cost of capital goes up and when interest rates rise, capital costs go down. This is without the other variable of the reckless lending we have seen in recent years.

    We haven't started to see house price fall yet and I believe they will fall faster and harder than even the moneyweek team believe. People have got far too used to the emergency 0.5% rates (2 years and counting). The soft landing you talk about is a temporary reprieve to give the banks time to socialise their debt.

    As far a volume goes, John Stepek said it is inaccurate to describe it as a 'housing market' as only a few houses are being bought and sold. I agree with him.

  • 12. RealityChecker

    (06 June 2011, 07:36PM)  Complain about this comment

    In the City we know where property is headed. Clever money has long departed and the the banks have largely managed to shift much of the damage to the tax payer - that was not an accident. It makes me laugh on these sites when deluded BTL investors believe that they have been saved because they are enjoying a little honeymoon period while earning a few quid from the bonus low IR's. THE reality of marriage will soon dawn upon them. Take some free financial advice - get out now or if you do stay in, ensure that you have a contingency plan for the impending mess. Easy come, easy go. Always the way unless you can bail out when you're riding high. You can probably guess what I've done with mine. Bail out now, if you can, or you will be the laughing stock in 3 years from now - if you're earning 5% net while on a precipice, then you're in the wrong place. Certainly not a comfortable position from an objective investor's angle.

  • 13. RealityChecker

    (06 June 2011, 07:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    MESSAGE TO BTL INVESTORS ABOVE: Something you might fancy. I can supply you with unlimited Somalian investment opportunities offering 6%. Contact me privately if you are interested.

  • 14. The Buy2Let King

    (06 June 2011, 08:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    @RealityChecker

    Thanks, but I think I'll stick with Tyneside where I'm getting up-to 15% gross

  • 15. nev

    (06 June 2011, 09:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    I read a report the other day that every other house sale is now in cash, and this is running the market, not mortgages. The Land Registry figures should give a more accurate picture, since they record all transactions, at real prices. Albeit about 6 months delayed.

    Despite everything we should not be so eager to see a collapse of the UK housing market. If and when that comes, the fallout will be catastrophic for the wider economy and the banks. Property values underpin a great deal of financial activity.

    Importantly, the strength of the housing market gives a sense of security to a majority of the population. Its social effect of its collapse would be comparable to a collapse of the NHS. People would no longer feel their lives were safe

  • 16. RealityChecker

    (06 June 2011, 10:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    @buytoletking

    Sounds to me like you want some exposure to the Libyan stocks portfolio. Usually reserved for special clients. 16% guaranteed (subject to market fluctuation). PM me.

    It seems as though you've been given advice already: http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/property/uk/the-british-property-market-is-in-for-a-gloomy-summer-12206?comment=1 (at comment 6)

  • 17. jaydee

    (06 June 2011, 10:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    A collapse in house prices to a reasonable income ratio will allow new motgage holders more disposable income which will be better for the economy as a whole. But - our government wants it's population hostaged to debt - for control purposes - it's been overdone recently via the venality of financial services and the stupidity of buyers sleep walking into disaster. Time for a correction - the BTL sector can do little else but talk it up as they are locked in to a falling market.

  • 18. Paul, Planet Earth

    (06 June 2011, 11:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    14 The Buy2Let King

    'Thanks, but I think I'll stick with Tyneside where I'm getting up-to 15% gross'

    Dont tell me these are cash on cash yields and not after tax yields expressed as a % of total capital (both debt and cash deposit payed up front)

    I bet you are assuming 100% zero void periods, no set asides for refurbs, ignore any mortgage fees, agency fees etc.

    In thats the case better change your name to Burger King it might be more appropriate in terms of where you might end up working.


  • 19. Jon Pond

    (06 June 2011, 11:19PM)  Complain about this comment

    Stuart Law. You reckon 8% gross yield is good? I have been reading Money Week for about 5 years and base my investment decisions on the information in the magazine. I have been making 20%+ per year on my investments. This is from ‘speculation in financial instruments’ as you so misguidedly put it.

    Property investment is a mugs game. It worked for a few years when capital values were rising (i.e the banks were providing easy credit). But those days are now over, and capital values can and will fall. All these mom and pop investors who piled in to the market in the expectation of an easy profit will pile straight back out again, a little poorer and wiser.

  • 20. Jon Pond

    (06 June 2011, 11:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    Also, all this talk about rents increasing is a smokescreen as well. Where I live (d) in the South East you can rent a ‘standard’ 2 bed flat or terraced house (which make up the bulk of the market) for the same price now as you could in 2004. It will be interesting to see what effect the combination of £9K university fees, a cap on housing benefit and rising interest rates will have on all of the BTL ‘investors’ over the course of the next few years.

  • 21. Dave the Rave

    (06 June 2011, 11:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    15. nev

    The UK property market has collapsed in terms of transactions.

    What we have now is an artificial market where the banks, the Government and the BoE are colluding to all but eliminate distressed sales and supply in general, in order to protect bubble valuations, thus keeping the likes of Lloyds-Halifax-HBOS solvent.

    As you say half of all transactions are in cash, thanks to ZIRP and QE, rich nationals and foreigners looking for somewhere to put their cash.

    Mortgage lending, the fuel of a healthy market, is a busted flush. It's nowhere near normal levels, let alone the levels seen in the Brown Boom which allowed prices to rise to 7x incomes.

    Can the BoE keep this going until the mortgage market can be revived a la 2007 style, or until wages catch up? How much economic harm is a stagnant market causing?

  • 22. PV70

    (07 June 2011, 12:26AM)  Complain about this comment

    Likes of Stuart Law argue that people are simply going to 'stop buying designer handbags' and hand over the cash to landlords instead. Stuart, I'm not sure on what planet you live on but most people haven't been spending their money on designer handbags or clothes, or on any unnecessary luxuries for some time now. Rents can only rise as much as tenants can actually afford to pay. So called shortage won't change that fact!

  • 23. Jon Pond

    (07 June 2011, 12:47AM)  Complain about this comment

    Heh heh. Yeah, that makes me chuckle. I fear Stuart somewhat behind the times. I mean, sticking a Z on the end of your name is soooo last decade chav culture.

    Although, a company called ‘unaffordable mortgage liabiliteeezzz’ may do quite well at the moment.

  • 24. The Buy2Let King

    (07 June 2011, 12:48AM)  Complain about this comment

    @22. PV70

    Tenants may not be able to pay more, but they certainly can get less. Perhaps a room/bedsit rather than a flat, and in places such as London, a share of a room.

    A landlord in greater London can get £2000pm for a standard 3-bed just by filling it with 10 desperate migrants @£50pw

    The reality of the UK is we now have perhaps 70 million people who need housing and hardly any more homes than when the population was 55 million.

    That's a tough deal for a renter/FTB who now has to compete with people happy to live 10-to-a-house. Perhaps more of them should have voted!

  • 25. The Buy2Let King

    (07 June 2011, 01:01AM)  Complain about this comment

    Oh, and I forgot good old Housing Benefit which despite the c6% austerity cut next year raises by RPI every year.

  • 26. Ant

    (07 June 2011, 05:04AM)  Complain about this comment

    Just want to inform readers of the comment" some have reinforcing rods sticking out of top storeys", this does not mean that there maybe another storey added later, this practice is a tax dodge, you have to pay a certain tax on completion of the building, so if you leave certain parts unfinished, you actually avoid this tax, of course the rest of the building is perfectly ok to live in.

  • 27. Owner Occupier

    (07 June 2011, 06:48AM)  Complain about this comment

    The Buy2Let King says "we now have perhaps 70 million people who need housing."

    Where did that figure come from? According to the ONS, it is around 62 million (2009).

    That must make the UK 'deceptively overpopulated'.

  • 28. Michael

    (07 June 2011, 07:26AM)  Complain about this comment

    "Gross yields currently at 7%". That means, for example, that a rental property costing 100,000 yields 7,000 per year in rent, right? Taking Merryn's figure of a net yield of 3%, that would mean 3,000 per year after all costs, right again? Now if that rental property has been purchased with a 90% mortgage and 10% deposit, then that 3,000 net is actually a 30% return for the investor, or approx 25% after allowing for inflation. Am I still right or am I missing something here? Isn't it exactly the point that buy-to-lets are leveraged investments that make them attractive? (Granted you have to be sure that the rent will still cover costs and then some when interest rates rise as they inevitably will).

  • 29. george

    (07 June 2011, 08:27AM)  Complain about this comment

    Buy2LetKing

    it strikes me that you are very vocal about your successes and i wonder if you are another one of those 'empty vessels....'

    and if you really are successful in your little pond i would be inclined to be less vocal, less proud of yourself because we know what that comes before. the government is none too happy about the labour BTL [pension] experiment.

    CGT will be restored to 40% and 50% up from the current 28%. the liberals will press this home and the torys won't object too much as it just reverses the awfully flawed 'labour idea'

    the property market in the UK is at the tipping point once more and with QE, the lowest rates for 300 years, bailouts, and scrappage schemes all ending the market will resume its falls sooner or later. nothing can stop this now. sure, eventually things will recover but this is no time to be speculative.

    the market will return to cycle, rates will [modestly] rise and things will be normalised finally.

  • 30. fred

    (07 June 2011, 08:39AM)  Complain about this comment

    If we accept net yields at 5-6% with the average BLT mortgage at 4% then it seems the only the banks that are making money. I could get 3% at zero risk in a decent savings account.

    So unless you are paying cash property isn't likely to be making any return. Investments in property at the moment is a punt that interests rate will remain low for an extended period.

    To glibly label all investments is shares as a “speculative punt” show a hypersensitivity to the actually risk. I can get a 6% yield on Vodaphone shares alone. Is there really more chance than Vodaphone will go bust and not pay a dividend than you BLT absconds or the boiler needs repairs.

    Sure shares prices fluctuate daily but longer term the prices are rising, and in a period of very low interests rates they offer the best home for, at least my, cash.

  • 31. george

    (07 June 2011, 08:39AM)  Complain about this comment

    the point of how many 'homes' there are in the UK is irrelavent if you only use figures that slant your argument. how many 'properties' there are is more pertinent.

    brings up the thorny question of empty property, holiday homes and properties 'in transmission'. true figures show that there is a SURPLUS of property in the UK. but the way the market has been supported and manufactured hides the true situation, all of course to perpetuate the endless bubble.

    trouble is this time the life support has failed.

  • 32. Steve

    (07 June 2011, 08:41AM)  Complain about this comment

    @Michael
    "Am I still right or am I missing something here? "

    Yes.

    You're missing the fact that the Halifax reports that house prices fell 5% (non-seasonally adjusted series) from April 2010 to April 2011 and you're missing the transaction costs (let's guess 2%). This makes a net yield of -4% or, using your method, a -40% loss on the cash stake. If you were to liquidate then the losses would be even bigger.

    What's better still is that when prices fall further, the proportion of the population with a predisposition towards buying buy-to-let will already be in negative/low equiity on their existing stock and therefore unable to take advantage of the falling prices to expand their holdings. Sweet.

  • 33. fred

    (07 June 2011, 08:48AM)  Complain about this comment

    Basic economics tells you has rent rise the demand will fall. At the very least we will see more rooms for offer in existing households on a tight budget, more people staying with mum & dad a bit longer or traveling further to work to find places with cheaper rent.

  • 34. bubblemeister

    (07 June 2011, 09:27AM)  Complain about this comment

    Merryn, the whole country was conned into a property ponzi scheme which is now slowly unravelling. The buy2letters are putting on a brave face and living in denial because well, they can't possibly accept that they were victims of a government sanctioned con game. A friend of mine recently told me that he was going to Florida to inspect some of his "investment properties" and I had to summon all my will power not to offer him my condolences. Last time I checked, there is still no cure for self delusion.

  • 35. Peter

    (07 June 2011, 09:29AM)  Complain about this comment

    I was a reluctant landlord in the early 2000s, having bought my house for around £50k and renting it out for around £600pcm. With bad tenants, repairs and voids this was no great money spinner even in those days.

    Given the same house now sells for £150k, there is no real capital growth and real price inflation must be 6-7%, there is no way I would want to buy the same kind of house as a letting proposition.

    To me, the whole b2l market looks like somewhere that the smart money has long since abandoned. If people still want to sink their cash into it now, good luck to them.

  • 36. Si

    (07 June 2011, 09:32AM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Michael yes you missed the interest paid on the loan of £90,000, which at say 3% (not likely) is £2700.

    So your return is 3% (£300) not allowing for property depreciation.

    As Merryn says, it makes far more sense when the property prices are going up.

  • 37. RealityChecker

    (07 June 2011, 09:52AM)  Complain about this comment

    @buy2letking

    Perhaps it should be made clear to readers that you are in the business of overcrowding. I think you mentioned 10 immigrants in your post earlier and in a previous post you mention 6 Romanians.

    If this is your business model then perhaps you are not the best person to be giving sound investment advice. After you've changed your name to Burger King you might want to try Dodgy Dave and sell dodgy motors. The net return is probably better if you sell them with dodgy MOT's. If things get really bad you could move into some lucrative criminal activity and then come on here, tell half the story and boast of wonderful returns.

  • 38. fingerbob69

    (07 June 2011, 10:04AM)  Complain about this comment

    "There are no half-built blocks, no empty resorts, no billboards outside ageing developments promising 100% financing. "

    Oh yes there is ...come to sunny Ipswich! There's A lovely concrete skeleton of a tower down on the marina ...a mothballed 80+ appartment development since early 2008 (would make a good front page photo). Or if you prefer, also on the marina dockside there's a silo tower needing knocking down with planning perm. for a futher 64 flats and shops. last I heard they want just £2million for it, as is.

    B2letters beware. 0.5% base rates is a fig leaf soon to be removed. Forced sales will rise dramatically. House values will fall as will rents as those values become 'affordable' to those currently in rented.

    (Please note: I am an EA working in Ipswich)

  • 39. econ expert

    (07 June 2011, 10:12AM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi merryn

    Let me put somthing forward and then give me your opinion.
    Ok so you say higher interest rates will further hinder the property market. Its been also said that this will be very bad news for banks as more defaults will arise which will increase impairments.
    On the other hand if interest rates rise which they will do soon is it not true that the uk banks will make huge profits as they receive more interest from borrowors for the money they borrowed from the bank of england for next to nothing. This would surely help offset any impairments.
    Your analyses and others is welcome.

  • 40. Mat

    (07 June 2011, 10:54AM)  Complain about this comment

    I hope you're right, Merryn, but the pessimist in me suspects you of being wrong. High house prices and rents aren't confined to the prosperous south east, they are everywhere, which suggests that there is a supply/demand imbalance that isn't going to dissipate, even with higher interest rates.

    There are three reasons for this: an ageing population, high immigration and insufficient home building for twenty years. This means that if house prices fall, then renters will become buyers, and house prices will simply rise again, with rents staying flat at best.

    I am old enough to remember the last recession, when prices really did collapse, but perhaps 3 million fewer people lived in this country then.

    In the absence of a serious "double dip" economic collapse, until more homes are built, the situation of extremely high property prices in the UK is going to go on for years.

  • 41. Roberto Birquet

    (07 June 2011, 10:57AM)  Complain about this comment

    Via the BBC's mortgage calculator:
    A £150,000 25-year repayment mortgage at 3% initially, while the rate exists will cost:
    £718 per month. OK, at the emergency interest rates we have....

    On a five-year fix at 5.1% that is available to some today, also 25 years:
    costs £896 per month, a rise of £178 pcm.

    Were base rates to rise to 6.5% (normal for current inflation), then a 25-year repayment at 8.5%, which would be the position in a normal interest rate environment:
    costs £1,221 pcm.

    That would equate to a 70% rise in landlord mortgage costs.

    Investors had better hope the economy requires emergency rates for ever. Although that would mean an anaemic economy and low wages for the renters.

  • 42. Ellen

    (07 June 2011, 11:11AM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Mat. There isn't such a shortage of housing as a lot of people would have you believe. Take a look at the pictures of houses and flats on rightmove. You will be amazed at how many of them are unoccupied

  • 43. Terry

    (07 June 2011, 11:12AM)  Complain about this comment

    "There are no half-built blocks, no empty resorts, no billboards outside ageing developments promising 100% financing. "

    To back up Fingerbob's comments about Ipswich go to Newquay. Huge numbers of flats built speculatively are empty or with short term tenants on very low rents which can't possibly give a positive yield based on the prices being asked for the flats.
    Add to that the empty lots where hotels were demolished to prepare for new developments of flats and other boarded up hotels where even demolition hasn't started.
    5 years ago it was boomtown.

  • 44. manny

    (07 June 2011, 11:23AM)  Complain about this comment

    I have emailed Merryn this view and I am happy to put it on record in this blog.

    Take the peak price in 2007, -70%... This is where prices will settle when all is done. All you rationalizers can come up with all the reasons in the world as to why it wont happen.

    But all markets go up and then they come down... SIMPLE.

    This has been the grandad of all credit booms. All the money created will go to "money heaven" as Bill Bonner likes to call it.

    Only a hand full of the buy to let people, who are wise enough NOT TO BELIEVE, will be left with any money. This is how markets work.

  • 45. Jackbooted Gauleiter

    (07 June 2011, 11:29AM)  Complain about this comment

    Reality Checker,

    With regard to your Somalian investments, I am looking for a cruise liner on which I would like to rent rooms to students attending one of our coastal universities. What sort of investment would it take for you to acquire one for me?

  • 46. Robin

    (07 June 2011, 11:32AM)  Complain about this comment

    The only reason the property market didn’t collapse years ago is because of the introduction of the buy to let mortgage, introduced to artificially prop up the property market when prices increased beyond the reach of the average first time buyer.

  • 47. Jackbooted Gauleiter

    (07 June 2011, 11:46AM)  Complain about this comment

    Gordy the Klepto gave buy to let a huge boost when he knowingly and deliberately destroyed the pension system. This event caused investors to look elsewhere for an asset to provide them with an income in retirement. It kicked off the bubble. Once the bubble started, then all sorts jumped on and inflated it. The upshot was "new" Labour achieved their end of dividing society.
    Instead of everyone owning their own dwelling, as Maggie T had envisaged, everyone with capital behind them, Gordy and Labour arranged things so that the working class was priced of housing, and had to rent. Now there is no chance of these people becoming "middle class" and voting Tory!

  • 48. Paul Claireaux

    (07 June 2011, 12:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    To Michael - 30% ? I'm afraid not. Merryn's numbers assume no gearing as the amount of gearing will vary with each person.

    Taking your logic - why not have a 100% mortgage (when they're available) and then your returns rise to infinity !!

    I think you need to re-do the sums.

    Also - i recently attended "rich dad" education seminar for amusement. (i try to get along to one of these plus one on spread betting each year to see if they're getting any more honest)

    The education seminar was of course trying to sell a more expensive 5 day course on property investment.

    The lady sat beside me already had 4 BTL properties and was losing money taking account of mortgage and maintenance costs.
    She was hoping for some independent education on what to do.

    Alas she was sold the idea that salvation lie in buying some more !!!

    (loved that dictionary definition of verbalise)

  • 49. heatonfan

    (07 June 2011, 12:42PM)  Complain about this comment

    I love the Comments section whenever an article on housing it published. We just need Frisby to talk about house prices relative to gold to reach a meltdown!

    In terms of housing shortage, I suggest you look in your home town and count the homeless persons. There are hardly any.That is because we have a housing surplus. We have a surplus of desire to get a better house, but just because I would like to drive a Ferrari rather than a Mondeo does not mean there is a vehicle shortage.

    A lot of BTL landlords have been hit very hard in the last 3 years on the "soft landing". I know one chap who lost millions and is about to be bankrupted. It is like bumping down uneven stairs: we've had one bump and the country is on the verge of sliding down a couple more at once with a tightening economy and further restriction of credit (whether by rates or bank liquidity).

  • 50. Ed

    (07 June 2011, 12:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    I work as a relocation agent in Central London and as such see an amazing amount of BTL flats and properties, and one thing is very clear - there is no 'UK property market' anymore. There is just 'Prime Central London' and 'Everywhere else'. I'd be betting that once you stripped out the figures for PCL, the true picture would actually be incredibly depressing indeed.

  • 51. boo1ska

    (07 June 2011, 01:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    One important fact that no-body appears to take into account when calling time on the the BTL market (and the housing market in general) is that banks are adding a risk premium to mortages now. Where mortages historically cost on average 2% above base rate they are now more like 3-4%. Ok... interest rates will inevitably rise but the premiums will eventually be factored out also. We could see base rates at 2% with similar interest rates that we are seeing today. Morgan Stanley are basing a 10% fall on a 1.5% increase in rates, so I question how black and white this argument really is.

  • 52. Robin

    (07 June 2011, 01:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    I don’t know what you are all worrying about. It would be good for everyone if property prices fell by 25%. First time buyers would be able to afford to buy and believe it or not, it would be cheaper to trade up. For example if you sell at £150,000 and buy at £250,000 you need to find an extra £100,000. If property prices fall by 25% you sell at £112,500 and buy at £187,500 you only need to find an extra £75,000 everyone wins.

  • 53. Roberto Birquet

    (07 June 2011, 01:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    Jaydee
    A collapse in house prices to a reasonable income ratio will allow new motgage holders more disposable income which will be better for the economy as a whole.
    -----------------
    You are so ahead of most economics commentators. It is amazing to think they have actually studied an intellectually rigorous subject.

    Too many economists in my experience have been willing to accept orthodox theories, and that has included the entire and in my view broken system of the past 20 years. In the UK and other Western countries, that has been consumerism based on debt.

    Barely mentioned in politics is that UK personal debt dwarfs UK government debt. And it has been personal and financial market debt that ignited this whole crisis.

  • 54. Paul

    (07 June 2011, 01:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    We're buying a house this year, like Merryn did, through necessity as we've been renting too long.

    However, I agree with her view and think prices will fall too which will help 1st time buyers. UK property is so overpriced generally, underpinned by BTL booms etc.

    Merryn, IMO you are one of the wiser forecasters/economists from past experience. 744124

  • 55. UnaPlanner

    (07 June 2011, 01:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    I remember reading (in 2008) that we will only know when we have reached the bottom of the market when everyone is so sick of property that no-one will talk about it anymore.

    53 posts in 36 hours shows we still have some way to go before we reach 'the bottom'.......

  • 56. Mike

    (07 June 2011, 02:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    52 Robin
    Exactly! I'm 45 and would love prices to fall.
    We bought our mid range home 15 years ago and want to move up as our wages have increased significantly since then - but who wants to put another 100k on their debt just to move to a 'slightly' better house. Average salaries are still only 25k. After tax that's maybe 20k take home? With living costs at say 15k - a lot of people are going to struggle to pay that 100k back in 25 years.
    We need to get the house prices down to a more realistic level.

  • 57. Simon

    (07 June 2011, 02:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    Yet another ill informed MW rant on property prices. Selectively quoting statistics that support a perennially negative view on property. Why quote a price index that is biased towards Northern borrowers when there is a far more reliable index produced by LSL Acadamtrics that does not suffer from bias? Why quote only Morgan Stanley when just about every other forecast is for a stronger market? And the "analysis" is laughable.

    Totally pointless rubbish.

  • 58. The Buy2Let King

    (07 June 2011, 03:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    57. Simon

    I could not agree more.

    However, people must make up their own minds what to believe. If you want to get brainwashed by MW and the HPC club and miss out on buying your first home at the bottom of the market or some decent B2L investments that's your loss and someone else's gain.

  • 59. Nev

    (07 June 2011, 03:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    Simon is absolutely right. Mortgage rates are not 0.5%, they are 5%. I dont know anyone these days whose mortgage is still tied to Bank Rate. The real interest rates in the economy are much higher than the official figures suggest.

    MW has been banging on about a 70% fall in house prices for three years. What has happened? A 10% fall and a steady erosion of value through inflation. Exactly like the last three booms and busts.

    It is not different this time. It is never different this time. Five years from now the pundits will be saying that property has never been cheaper in relation to household incomes.

    BTL, by the way, should be banned. The man in the street should not be fooling around with leveraging, no way. Money to buy investment property should only be lent to properly constituted businesses, with substantial assets. i know its an unpopular view, but BTL was unheard of before the mid 90s and is as much a product of dodgy financial practises as CDOs.

  • 60. Cousteau

    (07 June 2011, 03:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    The only person ranting here appears to be you, Simon.

    I'd be fascinated by some sort of 'analysis' that was positive on the prospects for UK property prices.

    You been talking to Tinky Winky again?

  • 61. danw

    (07 June 2011, 04:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    Ed and Boo1ska make the key points:
    1. mortgages for purchase cost not 0.5% but around 5%, which they have often been before.
    2. talking of a 'UK property market' is not useful, as some regions move in opposite directions.

    and a third key point is that MW constantly warns of impending inflation. the best way to benefit from inflation is to borrow (as long as it is for an asset whose income stream grows with inflation), and let the real value of your debt erode. the best was to do this happens to be property, purely because banks won't lend against any other collateral.

    there's no golden opportunity, but it should still be part of any UK-based portfolio.

  • 62. JustinC

    (07 June 2011, 04:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    As a recent first time buyer I'm amazed by the lack of perspective people have about how much current house prices are. Anyone would think that legal minimums exist for houses of a certain size. Here's an idea... there's never a right or wrong time to buy a house, only a right and wrong price to be paid.
    Work hard, save harder, and barter harder still.
    The biggest correction needed in the housing market is with the myth that home ownership is a human right, and that working hard all of ones life equals a decent return on your investments.

  • 63. ontheotherhand

    (07 June 2011, 04:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    The market has seized up because the chains aren't moving and volumes are a third of what they were. People in the middle of the chain are rational buyers, but emotional sellers. That is to say, when they put in a low bid for the next house on the ladder, they come armed with data and research of comparative sales on the street, sample yields, and they just won't pay more than it's worth. The same people however are selling their property emotionally. They have an irrational anchor to the price they paid ++ and take the estate agent who gives them the biggest number, even if it is more than any other house nearby is selling for.

  • 64. fingerbob69

    (07 June 2011, 04:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    "Simon is absolutely right. Mortgage rates are not 0.5%, they are 5%. I dont know anyone these days whose mortgage is still tied to Bank Rate. The real interest rates in the economy are much higher than the official figures suggest."

    @Nev

    And there-in lies the danger. If morgage rates are at 5% with a base rate of just 0.5%, What will they be when the base rate has risen to north of 2%? Do you expect the banks to trim their margins? Will morgages have become more affordable? Do you expect peoples' incomes to rise, at a fast enough rate, to compensate? Or will inflation do that work for you?

    And actually, it's second/holiday homes that should be taxed to the point of being only for the very rich. The 'shortage' of homes in places like Devon and Cornwall would evaporate overnight.

  • 65. Roberto Birquet

    (07 June 2011, 05:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    Nev
    Property values underpin a great deal of financial activity.
    -------------------
    They also underpin a great deal of economic insecurity for homeseekers and for future generations. Higher prices mean less money available for consumers in the wider economy. If someone today needs a £40K deposit rather than a £20K deposit, he or she has to save and not spend the extra £20K. Larger mortgages also mean less disposable income.

    Of course, the alternative is to simply go back to the policy of debt financing private consumption. You know, just living on credit cards and higher mortgages that recently brought down the world economy, and has led to the present round of sovereign debt crises.
    And let the taxpayer and future generations suffer. Yeah, that might fly.
    But I'd prefer that the shareholders and bond holders of failed businesses take the hit. That's capitalism, isn't it?

  • 66. Roberto Birquet

    (07 June 2011, 05:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    Gordy and Labour arranged things so that the working class was priced of housing, and had to rent. Now there is no chance of these people becoming "middle class" and voting Tory!
    ---------------
    A curious theory. Impoverish people so that they will vote for you. Good as a parody, but not something actually think was true.

    My belief is that G Brown was not very bright - certainly not as bright as he considered himself. Why claim to have brought about an "end to boom and bust"? when it would obviously turn out to be an embarrassing claim. The truth is - I fear - he actually believed it.

  • 67. Roberto Birquet

    (07 June 2011, 06:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    A last thought.

    I don't agree with everything from Ms Somerset-Webb. For me markets do not get out of whack, then "correct", but far more brutishly boom and bust. But she is right on housing being over-priced and it will fall - at least in real terms. But, there's the rub.
    Emergency huge deficits and emergency low interest rates have insulated those who made poor decisions (buytolet in 2005-7) from the consequences. Where countries cannot keep interest rates at zero, prices have collapsed (see Ireland), but also elsewhere (see the US).
    If rates rise to normal levels, forced sales will boom, and prices will dive. That would be a good thing, but the BoE and govt are trying to halt that. And as such, are as guilty as NewLabour.
    They want - I believe - high inflation to destroy the value of money. That way nominal prices would not need to fall by much, as the real price would have fallen with the value of money. But that is a dangerous game for the economy.

  • 68. Roberto Birquet

    (07 June 2011, 06:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    JustinC
    barter harder still!
    ---
    What swap some goats for a flat?

  • 69. Niall Phipps

    (07 June 2011, 07:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    Gordon Brown was the biggest idiot we have ever had and believed his own bull sh......Our grandchildren will probably paying the debts he left the UK for years to come.Thank goodness Cameron blocked his attempts to work in the IMF.
    Regarding BTL the best yields are in the ex-industrial areas.I always invest in good value property in the same town and use local knowledge to find out about prospective tenants---I do not let to anyone who people say are bad news.I do not buy any house in a bad spot even if it is a bargain.My prediction is in real terms the market will not rise that much over the next 7 years but inflation will hide this as it did between 1973 and 1979.

  • 70. TIP

    (07 June 2011, 08:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    Nev

    Not sure that the Land Registry index is as accurate as Halifax/Nationwide in terms of sampling technique, but yes cash sales are included as opposed to Halifax/Nwide..

    Land Registry simply base it on sales prices and exclude repossesions and auction sales.

    Hal/Nwide and US House Price index use multivariate regression analysis which allows for the comparison of like-for-like. This is important in the compilation of regional indices.
    The Halifax exclude sales not for private occupation and those not representative of free or normal market prices. Only mtges to finance house purchase are included.So yes cash sales excluded.

  • 71. Steve

    (07 June 2011, 08:11PM)  Complain about this comment

    Niall Phipps - A buy-to-letter that thinks house prices are going to rise in real terms over the next seven years - and has the audacity to call Brown an idiot!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 72. Alec

    (07 June 2011, 08:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    The government should let property prices crash as soon as possible and let the repossessions begin. Dragging it out over the next 20 years dosen' t make any sense at all. Take the pain now. Reduce personal taxation by 50% and increase interest rates to at least 8% .

  • 73. Paul

    (07 June 2011, 08:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    #2 Stuart, 5/6% yield, nothing to gloat about, you can buy dividend yielding stocks offering 7-8%. Added to the fact they can be used in an ISA, have a far greater upside potential and your cash is liquid, is a much better investment at present.

    Buytoletking, a.k.a Rigsby, again 15% gross, deduct 40% tax, being the king you, add all other related costs, and your left with about 6/7%. Wow.

    Factor in that your capital investment is likely to lose at least 5-15%, as you bought in Tyneside, LOL, and it doesn't seem very attractive. Oh and I haven't mentioned Interest rate rises yet, or inflation......

  • 74. complan

    (07 June 2011, 09:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    house prices simply floating on low interest rates-when rates rise a few points house price falls will increase rapidly-
    The 'house' market needs first time buyers to sustain it- no govt. intervention will be sufficient to enable enough 'first timers' to provide the required support-hence prices will fall to affordable levels.
    When? simple-the day after i buy!

  • 75. Bob

    (07 June 2011, 09:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    I can't see higher IRs coming for several years now. Savers are going to be hammered.

    At the same time house prices are not collapsing in my part of the world - they have shot up considerably since last year. I should have bought last year.

    At the moment I can't see anything else to invest in. Gold and other commods could go the way of silver over a couple of days, the stock market in the US looks set for a mighty collapse and only a fool would invest in a business currently.

    No, I hate to say it but I can see why those with cash are going into property.

  • 76. Ellen

    (07 June 2011, 10:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Bob.No75. Property? Not Gold?

  • 77. Matt

    (07 June 2011, 11:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    It's funny - the divergence of opinion here. I can't help but wonder whether it's driven as much by wishful thinking ('I own a house, prices are going up' vs. 'I want to buy a house, prices will fall') as much as hard facts..!

  • 78. smlaing

    (08 June 2011, 10:43AM)  Complain about this comment

    I suspect you are right but perhaps not in the way you think. The reason why there has been not big fall in house prices like the 1990's even though this recession is significantly worse is because the banks are not in a position to book the losses on repossessions. So the CB's print money over time to recapitalise the banks whilst keeping the velocity in their own country near zero. Once they are in a position to start booking losses and inflation starts to motor, that is when interest rate will rise sharply, the money supply will contract, inflation will drop through the floor and asset prices will collapse. I'm afraid it's a necessary evil. A readjustment has to be made and this is how the PTB have decide it will happen.
    Much like the sinking of the titanic. Once the inevitable was realised, it was just a case of deciding who will be saved!....(Rich)

  • 79. Ian the Adviser

    (08 June 2011, 10:57AM)  Complain about this comment

    As we all argue from our own, usually localised, experiences, we will never agree on the state of the overall market. I am a City Accountant turned IFA and actively arrange mortgages in the North West and South East. There are huge variations in price direction and rental yields within in these areas as well as in between them.
    BtL was a great investment between 1995 and 2005, when I stopped expanding my portfolio as "Total Returns" ( growth plus yield ) fell below 10%, which is what I could get from a tax protected Stockmarket product. Now I'm not so sure as Interest Rates will rise shortly, reposessions skyrocket and values fall.
    Also, until the average Brit can afford the average British house, prices cannot rise. Timing is everything and don't put all your eggs in one basket . . with any investment.

  • 80. smlaing

    (08 June 2011, 10:59AM)  Complain about this comment

    Those who are BTL investors her ought to take a more pragmatic view and stop being blind thinking their portfolio can never be destroyed. I assure it can and probably will be if you are not positioned correctly. Step back and look at a business as if your were fund manager. Your running a business like any other and it can go down like any other.

    A very good friend of mine is currently the owner of one of the UK's largest portfolio's and he nearly went down because of the bank!

    If you are not yielding 10% or if your leverage is more than 60% then you will be at risk.

    I would say that the risk to property owners carrying more than 70% debt over the next 4 years is more than at anytime in history!

    By the way.....I am a property investor too!

  • 81. Addicted to benefits

    (08 June 2011, 11:50AM)  Complain about this comment

    A few questions for the Buy 2 Let king ...

    Are you doing this on leverage and if so how are your capital values holding up?

    Are you letting in an "upmarket" are like Jesmond which is awash with "To Let" signs at the moment?

    How many of you tenants are dependent on the state so as to be able to pay the rent i.e. they are on benefits or have a sinecure down at the Ministry for example?

  • 82. Roberto Birquet

    (08 June 2011, 03:37PM)  Complain about this comment

    Niall 69
    Gordon Brown was the biggest idiot we have ever had and believed his own bull sh......Our grandchildren will probably paying the debts he left the UK for years to come.
    -----------------------
    Do you know what you are wittering on about? I am no fan of Brown, but...
    Govt debt in the UK is around 58% of GDP (and likely to rise another 10 pc points this year, taking it most likely to 68%).

    But personal debt actually topped 100% of GDP (the size of the economy) by the time the banks went bust.

    And you are talking about taking on more debt in this housing market?

    It is not Brown, but people like yourself who will leave our grandchildren with unmanageable debts.

  • 83. Michael

    (09 June 2011, 03:11AM)  Complain about this comment

    @Steve and @Si - many thanks for your comments. I was basing my calculations on the assumptions in Merryn's article i.e. 7% gross return and a 3% net return so cost of mortgage is assumed to be covered in the 4% difference between gross and net. I agree that these assumptions are unrealistic and I also agree that if prices plummet and you sell you will realise a loss (but if you could get a deal like that, why would you want to sell an asset that was returning 25+%?!) The point I am really trying to make is that Merryn's statement that a net return of 3% is actually a negative return when you take into account inflation at 4% is misleading because that is only the case if you have purchased the property outright. If you have borrowed money (and costs of borrowing are included in your 4% difference between gross and net yields), then the return on your actual investment is much higher.

  • 84. Ed

    (10 June 2011, 08:16AM)  Complain about this comment

    We need good advise during the bad time more than good time.
    I don't need someone keeing saying the bad things and can't have a vision about the market in two years time. Property is medium to long term investment, I don't need expert views repeating more or less the same that I have heard in 93,94. I was so glad that I invested in property in 93,94 and I still have those properties situated in Canary Wharf.......I also invested in Shanghai in 2003 while every papers in UK declaring how fragile the economy in China and keeping attack the human right issues....I am now buying back to London, especially around Kings Cross area..............

  • 85. Florence

    (12 June 2011, 07:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    Merryn,
    I am broadly in agreement with your article and I think that property will fall further. (I got out about a year too late and have yet to see if I was right ).
    In one of your leaders you advised readers that you had bought a house with all the reasons i.e. you have a place to call home, somewhere to live, better to service a mortgage than pay rent etc.

    Do you expect to lose on your own house or is it one of the areas that seem to be immune to market forces? Putney, Wadebridge, Mayfair?

    I am totally bemused by the present situation, it seemed that the bubble had finally burst spectacularly but then...lo! the government totally discredited by now, (expenses scandal) just patched up the bubble with 0.5% interest rates and re-inflated it with QE
    The BTL crowd believe they can carry on regardless but somehow we have to repay most of the £trillion personal debt in this country don't we?

    Can you explain? I am just too thick.

  • 86. Manny

    (14 June 2011, 04:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    59. Nev

    MW has never been banging on about a 70% drop in house prices..
    It is me doing the banging about a 70% drop in prices.

    MW has been saying that house prices would fall for quite sometime,
    we are getting there now. So MW has held the correct view. Where are all the people that said prices would never go down? How wrong are they.

    Also be patient these things take time. Most people are stick in the mud, once they believe something it can take a long time for views to adjust to reality.

    But reality always catches up and for most it is far too late by then.

  • 87. Rob

    (20 January 2012, 04:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    VOID Periods???

    I wanted to get into two of my rental properties last year, they both needed decorating throughout because I felt they needed freshening up. I also wanted to put a new kitchen into one that has been on long term rent as it meant I could get a premium rent for it. In both cases the tenants begged to be allowed to rent them without the improvements at the rents I wanted. They have been owned for 5 and 7 years respectively and the yield on original investment is now 45% and 55%. Both mortgages will be paid off within 10 years of owning them because of the low interest rates. Most of my other rentals are now paid off because of the crazy low interest rates at the moment. I dont want to buy anymore property at the moment, but I don't know what to do with the income once they are paid off. I certainly wont be following Merryn and her Bank of China scheme, has she never heard of BCCA!

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