Britain's house prices have a date with destiny

By Bengt Saelensminde Oct 03, 2012

Bengt Saelensminde

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Last week we looked at Nick Clegg’s crazy proposal to use pension funds as deposits on houses. And I also talked about why how you should consider property as part of an overall portfolio.

Houses and house prices always make for heated debate, so thanks to anyone that left a comment. But today I’m afraid I have one final controversial housing topic I want to address.

I’m talking about what many refer to as a fantastic housing conspiracy – one that could see millions of people losing their homes over the next few years. It’s a pretty far fetched conspiracy – as you’ll see. But it does point the way to a potentially devastating event for the UK property market

Here’s how it works

The conspiracy is this: the boom and the bust that we have seen in housing in recent years was no accident. In fact it was the deliberately created by central banks, at the behest of the banking industry.

Why would they do such a thing? Well this is an idea that is regularly argued by Austrian economists. The basic idea is that central banks look to create credit bubbles to rob people of their savings. The central bank lowers interest rates. Banks sucker in borrowers while rates are low. And then when the central bank cranks up interest rates your borrowings become unsustainable. And so the bank ends up owning your property.

These credit bubbles rob people of their savings. They load you up with debt. Then they take away your property in the final bust – as happened during the Depression in the US.

Could this really be happening today?

Well many Austrians would point to the States. Here interest rates haven’t even started to go up yet, but banks have certainly been busy taking homes from delinquent owners. If rates go up, the takeover rate will undoubtedly increase.

And this week I read an interesting article in the Times which told the story of a pair of hotel owners who borrowed some money from RBS to refurbish their hotel. Valuations suggested it would be worth between £7.7m and £9m following the works. But one week before the hotel was due to open, RBS shut the business down – claiming they had no money left.

Ultimately RBS transferred the property to its own books, leaving the pair of businessmen short by (they claim) £4m. They’re pursuing a fraud case against the bank, saying that they were solvent at the time, and they’ve been done out of their life savings.

Could we see more of this kind of action from the banks? I suspect so.

There is certainly no doubt in my mind that the banking industry is an unfairly protected industry. There are countless powerful lobby groups looking after the interest of big business. But in the case of banks, they have the most powerful lobby of all – the central banks.

Yes, we’re supposed to believe that the main purpose of banks like the Fed or Bank of England is to serve the public good. But this isn’t really the truth of it. The central banks were set up to ensure the longevity and health of the banking industry. And of course, to a large degree that suits the public – I mean, we don’t want banks going down every week.

But let’s not forget, the primary aim is to keep the banks in good shape. They can literally do whatever they like... including creating new money and handing it straight over to the banks.

I mean just look at the latest quantitative easing effort by the US Fed. Under QE3, the Fed will print vast sums of money to buy mortgage paper. This bails out the banks. But it could also leave the Fed with a very tidy property portfolio by the time this thing is finished.


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But is it really a conspiracy?

Now I can’t go for the whole conspiracy idea. I don’t buy the idea that the Fed and the banks actually want to usurp millions of homes.

I suspect the whole thing is as much to do with the public’s ignorance. Not so much of finance, or economics, but history. They don’t recognise that there will always be boom and bust. It’s just a societal condition. If we’re not getting into a frenzy about dotcom stocks, then it’s probably housing, or something else.

I for one, am very happy to ride a bull market – and more profitable still, to ride a mania. But if you’re going to do so, you want to a) be careful when using leverage. And b) know when to get out.

If you use leverage and don’t have a good sense of timing then you can lose the lot. Now is that a conspiracy?

Not to my mind. It’s just the madness of crowds.

And in this case, sure, the banks may end up with an awful lot of property on their books. And yes, there may be some cases of fraud along the way. But the vast majority of property transfers come down to homeowners that simply played a bull market too long and with too much leverage. From the bank’s perspective, I’m sure they’d rather not fill their balance sheets up with delinquent property.

The date with destiny?

For the moment the central banks seem committed to keeping rates down. And for the moment most over-leveraged homeowners will sleep easy at night.

But here’s where I think its starts to get worrying.

Because the real danger here is not that central banks have too much control. The real danger is that central banks are actually losing control of the economy.

I mean history shows that central banks can lose control – just look at the UK in the 1970s. Interest rates can go up – and wildly so in panic situations.

In the past it was the bond markets that put the central bankers back in their place. But frankly, the Bank of England is buying up so many bonds that it practically is the bond market right now.

And if Mervyn King keeps printing money we’ll soon have another problem... runaway inflation. If inflation ramps up, interest rates will too. Well, so history tells us.

The proportion of private home ownership in this country has never been higher. And an interest rate nightmare could be mechanism by which homeownership reverts to mean. Who will be left owning a home? Well probably just those who aren’t over-leveraged – those with significant savings.

That’s treacherous talk I know… I shall be expecting venom. Please, feel free to leave your abuse below.

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  • 1. Paul

    (03 October 2012, 06:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    Yes its a conspiracy, they got me in 1990 and insurance that should have covered the negative equity was not honoured as it would hurt the 'too big to fail' insurance companies.

    The bottom line is this, big business can buy politicians, the little guy cannot compete with that. The longer the Bank of England ( a private bank, NOT a government entity) kicks this down the road the larger the loss for the individual will be.

  • 2. digger

    (03 October 2012, 06:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    sorry to disappoint but I agree. It's just a question of when and how bad.

  • 3. Mark weeks

    (03 October 2012, 06:19PM)  Complain about this comment

    Spot on imo!
    This economy is a sham , the oposite of what should be happening.
    They will try and build another housing bubble but the games almost up.
    Just have to wait and let disaster play out, no point in trying to do the right thing in gb, its a morally and financially bankrupt nation and the sheeple are sleepwalking!

  • 4. paul

    (03 October 2012, 06:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    i have heard all this BS since 2008 ...housing market has lost between 10/20% in the worst 5 years we have ever seen.Yet stock market is doing very well over last 3 years up about 60% UK and US about 70% since lows where put in. Can you really see anything that will make the market collapse by far worse than what has occured with banks nearly going bust etc over last 5 years...i cant.....for me housing might drop about 10/15%.....i hope a lot more because im sitting on cash renting and have bought and sold property over this tricky last few years...its about buying at the right price and being there first at the right time with cash...i hope housing markets drops like a lead balloon but cant see this.

  • 5. Geoff

    (03 October 2012, 06:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    This article is spot on, the general public have been suckered into feeling wealthy on borrowed money, in my opinion house prices have to fall to 1998 levels to be at fair value.

    Everyone needs to cut there cloth to suit there pocket and not buy what we cannot afford. A downward spiral beckons for the next five to six years in my opinion. Plenty of blood letting to come, mine included.

  • 6. Richard Stead

    (03 October 2012, 06:46PM)  Complain about this comment

    I cannot see how it is in the interest of banks to forclose on too many loans. It causes there to be a flood of reposessed homes on the market which could fetch less than the mortgage . It i OK to recover a few homes but they could cause a crash and a big loss on their loan books as a result.

  • 7. Mike

    (03 October 2012, 07:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    Spot on, I spent 35 years in practise as a Chartered Surveyor and my firm went through several booms and busts. These were caused by unsound banking policies and to much easy credit and not enough of a deposit being required.

    House purchase is a compeditive marked for buyers in a normal market. Easy credit does the home buyer no good it just forces the price up and the purchaser into even greater debt.

    The banks, builders, insurance companies and estate agents make a killing and house owners feel good as prices of houses rise and the politicians get votes and donations from the happy builders and bankers.

    It always ends in tears, this time will be worse!

  • 8. dr ray

    (03 October 2012, 07:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    Richard @6 beat me to it but I was about to say the same. Why would the banks want properties? Its not as if they keep them and when they are sold at auction they often fetch less than they lent on them. And as Richard says the more they repossess the less their mortgage book is worth because it forces prices down.
    Now if you want a conspiracy you should look at why the government is so keen for young people to buy property. The answer is that it is the ideal thing to tax since it cannot be hidden, taken offshore and is easy to value. There is a snag at present because they don't want to depress the house market further but as soon as prices stabilize I suspect taxation based on house value will be the next great milk cow.

  • 9. Justo

    (03 October 2012, 07:31PM)  Complain about this comment

    You have forgotten about another player, politicians. They need to be elected, unlike bankers, homeless people will vote for another party and have to be housed by the state. Politicians have the power to control the banks. The banks will also go bust with large bad debts from negative equity and need state aid ( even more than now). Banks will always do dirty tricks when short of funds but conspiracy, no.

  • 10. Phil

    (03 October 2012, 07:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    I'm not sure why you expected abuse. You pointed out the extreme end of what could happen - then it would be a conspiracy. Personal greed is what is at the heart of ALL the financial problems. Bankers were allowed to be greedy on a massive scale but Joe Public didn't help by over borrowing - no one forced it on them!!!
    I have a mortgage at 80% of the value of the house - I was offered 115% (before the meltdown) but thought the value would HAVE to rise to break even and I wasn't sure that it would so I was careful and lucky enough to have saved enough for the deposit. My house can lose 20% and I can still pay back the mortgage - that's how I looked at it then and still do. I would rent if I could not afford the mortgage.

  • 11. Mo

    (03 October 2012, 07:39PM)  Complain about this comment

    I am sure you are right,
    I was a victim of the banks crooked practice in the early nineties.

  • 12. Justo

    (03 October 2012, 08:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    House prices, up or down, always gives great copy, but can we have some balance by highlighting the value of a house as a home. We all need somewhere to live, try renting and compare the cost against home ownership, which may at least over the long term give some capital gain and in the meantime is home. The value of a home is only important when buying or selling, in the meantime it is a home, unless of course you treat it as a liquid asset. I would always be happy to pay more for owner occupied rather than rental.

  • 13. Bapodra Investments

    (03 October 2012, 08:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    You may be right but what is the point of the banks owning lots of property if there are no buyers? If people are losing their property due to interest rates rising then who is going to buy these properties? I do agree that we have have an increase in inflation and then as a result increase in interest rates then there may be some casualties. This is part of economics I am afraid. So the assets to own are gold and silver.

  • 14. Gee Raf

    (03 October 2012, 08:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    Lots of truth in your article. However I do think that if you didn't see the house crash coming then you're an idiot! And likewise if you've leveraged yourself to the hilt chasing the housing market higher, more fool you. I know that there are exceptions but individuals need to take responsibility for their own actions.
    BTW I too hope that the housing market crashes.

  • 15. Julian

    (03 October 2012, 08:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    I don't believe banks are directly after your home, but they are definitely out to steal your wealth and if that includes your home so be it.
    We are heading for a collapse like nothing we have experienced before. The world is saturated in debt and the central banks are trying to print their way out of it, which will bring on hyperinflation. There will be a huge wealth transfer from paper assets to hard assets. So you better get some physical silver and gold in your own possession, and I'd only leave what you gave to in the bank for bills. They are all insolvent. RBS was no computer glitch, that was a liquidity crisis. Think 2008 x 1000 and you'll have underestimated where we're going. As such UK house prices will halve at least. Ave house price is around 7x ave salary - um hello, sustainable?

  • 16. Frank

    (03 October 2012, 08:31PM)  Complain about this comment

    Anyone wanting a brilliant, entertaining and thorough account of the financial system should read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin - a book applauded by Senator Ron Paul, amongst notable others. Who was it said: “It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning”? You guessed it, none other than Henry Ford.

  • 17. D MacDonald

    (03 October 2012, 08:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    Hey Justo politicians can control the banks! Surely it's the other way around? The PM's of Italy and Greece stepped aside when told to do so and let two central bankers take their place without an election!!! Politicians are the paid actors who front for the central bankers. Notice how it doesn't make a difference which way you vote, they do as they are told or they are out. If they toe the line like Blair they get to be very wealthy. On the basis that central bankers are not stupid then they know very well what the effect of free money followed by a sudden contraction of the money supply does. You only have to look in the record of the minutes of the Federal Reserve during the great depression to see their intention to foreclose on the farmers and make them tennents on their own land or read the comments of Josiah Stamp of the Bank of England about banking being born in sin. He actually tells you how to become free of usuary, don't allow them to create your currency.

  • 18. Johnny

    (03 October 2012, 08:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    Fear and greed. Always the big motivators. Money week seems to gain readership that way. Still I do love it as a barometer of the extremes. Banks make money from getting customers to pay interest, not from owning their house! Enough said.
    I am a home owner and hope for a house crash. Why? As its not the last house I will ever buy. The next being bigger I want it to be cheaper. Also don't forget that potential rental values are the missing player here... We all have to live somewhere!!
    Also it's in the governments 'interest' to devalue/reduce sovereign debt buy a disguisable level of inflation... Not to destabilise.
    The winners will be those with a balanced / hedged portfolio including a home :)

  • 19. Whistlerfx

    (03 October 2012, 08:57PM)  Complain about this comment

    Say Bengt,

    Could you send a copy of your article to our last unelected Prime Minister, Gordon Brown. I am not sure yet that he understands about boom and bust.

  • 20. Jo

    (03 October 2012, 09:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    At last a journalist who "gets it" and writes it - almost.

    The privately owned, central banks cartel, help the banks to cream off our wealth. It is all a tightly knit system, see The Money Masters.

    Banks loan money they don't have, but people pay back their loans with hard earned cash (originally printed by the bank. Interested is not printed). Effectively people are working for nothing?

    If people default on their homes, the banks have tangible goods in exchange for fairy tale loans.

    Judging by the latest news, billions of debt is being paid off with hard earned "real" cash.

    The tipping point will come when a certain percentage is paid off. The powers that be will then crash the market, grab the tangible houses as well and sell them for 'real' cash to some other idiot.

    Then stage is then set for the next round of mortgage boom.

    A good method for keeping the population poor. Conspiracy or not, we need to face up to the fact that we are being scammed.

  • 21. John in Leeds

    (03 October 2012, 10:21PM)  Complain about this comment

    Good story and most likely very true.
    For Banking conspiracy stories check out "Bilderberg - Secret World Government" on google for starters.

  • 22. anon

    (03 October 2012, 10:41PM)  Complain about this comment

    A few years ago I happened to be renting a house from someone I knew. It happened that he had a buy-to-let mortgage. Because of a family bereavement overseas the mortgage payments were overlooked and also a bit difficult to make at arm's length and the upshot was that the mortgage payments went briefly two months into arrears (1 month plus one day).

    I received a letter from solicitors whose address was given as the same as the lender immediately after the month plus one day requesting vacation forthwith. Seems to rhyme with your theme.

    Fortunately nothing came of it; I phoned, muttered about CAB local press etc. and the arrears were cleared anyway. i do wonder what would have happened if I had left immediately and not told the still distant owner what was going on. I don't think the lenders actually had the law on their side as there are surely safeguards in place to stop quite suck quick action but still I do wonder......

  • 23. Earthman

    (03 October 2012, 11:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    Expect houses to be worthless by 2020 as the great correction gains momentum.

  • 24. 4caster

    (04 October 2012, 12:14AM)  Complain about this comment

    I don't buy this conspiracy theory, any more than the one about Uncle Sam orchestrating 9/11 to provide an excuse for wars in the Middle East, or the one about the moon landings being an elaborate hoax.
    "Banks", whether of the Central or Commercial variety, do not have minds of their own. They are run by people, who aspire to be rich individually, but who are notoriously inept at co-operating with each other and especially with politicians. They all have more to gain by making the masses feel rich than by impoverishing us all. But politicians will always tell us what we want to hear. They know what happens to messengers who bring bad news.

  • 25. Paul

    (04 October 2012, 01:16AM)  Complain about this comment

    Earthman - House's will not be worthless simply because everyone needs a place to live. It is one of the few non discretionary commodities. Sure, they may fall in value, however, relatively speaking I expect them to hold there own - if you have bought at the right price - a big" if" for many I accept. The fact of the matter is that you can currently buy many properties for less than it would cost to build them. Unless materials and wages fall, the price cannot drop too low given the non-discretionary nature of the commodity and the fact that people have debts secured against many properties.

  • 26. PISTESKIER

    (04 October 2012, 07:18AM)  Complain about this comment

    I don't buy the conspiracy theory but I strongly believe that the end game might be the same.
    At some point inflation and increasing interest rates are going to come thundering back - there is so much pent up pressure in the worldwide economy that inflation might be the only way of devaluing debt to a manageable level.
    I feel sorry for those who have large mortgages and live in ignorance - these years of low interest are the time to reduce debt and restructure so that we can weather the storm when it arrives.

  • 27. bruciebonus

    (04 October 2012, 08:44AM)  Complain about this comment

    Bang on the button, Bengt!

  • 28. Simon

    (04 October 2012, 08:46AM)  Complain about this comment

    No need for any venom - for once we have a a rational argument from a MoneyWeek author on the matter of property! I don't agree with much of it - the concept of a massive conspiracy is about as credible as the conspiracy theories about the American landings on the moon. There would have to be thousands in on the "secret" - and that just could not work.

    The only factor that could cause a major rise in interest rates leading to a housing crash would be if we were to follow the mad economic policies of one of the architects of our current fiscal problems - Ed Balls. The BoE would be forced to push up rates to maintain any international value in sterling and that would be catastrophic.

  • 29. Ian

    (04 October 2012, 08:54AM)  Complain about this comment

    Look I stupidly sold out of buy to let through /06 /07
    advise from Money Week, the worst advice I have ever had,I am still waiting for the CRASH,yes prices are the same or a little lower, thanks to QE. The difference here and the US is Jingle Mail, negative equity comes along and they give the banks back the keys. Not here , you will always owe the bank. QE worked by buggering up the market. We could wait years for rates to go up. No I do not believe the banks deliberatly take over homes, it is just what happens when you have very bad management , short term profit mentality driven by stupid bonuses, incompitence from the top down---- Lord Turner anyone Mervin. Just keep the music playing.

  • 30. Sam

    (04 October 2012, 09:30AM)  Complain about this comment

    I don't think it is so much of a conspiracy by the banks, we are at this tipping point because the public have generally bought things they can't afford with loose money from the banks who in turn had poor lending models. While interest rates remain artificially low, mortgages are affordable. When the bond market rounds on the UK (which it will eventually,) interest rates must rise and then inflation will be out of the bottle too.
    The end is nigh for a lot of homeowners.
    As for the conspiracy by banks. I have it on good authority that and any repos of property usually don't return a profit. (A lot of banks did liar loans with hardly any credit check ,so no profit in a repo on one of those loans.) Also banks don't want losses showing on their balance sheets. Thus the BOE is keeping interest rates low for as long as it can to protect homeowners and banks. So far it has given the illusion of a fairly stable housing market. I don't think it will be in a couple of years.

  • 31. A Harper

    (04 October 2012, 09:43AM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree with the sentiment, although I doubt the banks are the orchestrators. As several others have commented, a glut of repos. are going to seriously depress house prices and banks will struggle to re-coup their loans. Once interest rates start to rise I suspect we will see a massive swing to discount mortgages as banks struggle to keep people from going bust, by offering them cheaper loans.

  • 32. Cliff Morris

    (04 October 2012, 09:59AM)  Complain about this comment

    Ben.
    No abuse old boy, I largely agree with your interpretation and think you make a lot of sense - unlike that phoney Tom Bulford. He occasionally gets lucky with a share tip but all this drama he plays out in his broadcasts just to get us to sign up to his Letters. I made that mistake a few years ago and it cost me dear.

  • 33. Tonto

    (04 October 2012, 10:00AM)  Complain about this comment

    A frozen housing market is the inevitable outcome of over optomistic borrowing and lending based on a belief that prices would always rise.

    Banks encouraged the supply of money to rise faster than the supply of houses resulting in house prices rising in excess of wages and general inflation. Home owners felt richer and were able, by upping their borrowing, to monetise this "wealth" and spend it on other goods and services which benefitted the economy and GDP.

    Politicians gained praise and kudos from this "growth" and did nothing to hinder it. By bailing out the banks and then printing money they will allow inflation to "solve" the debt dilemma. Wages will rise and and eventually a new equilibrium will be reached.

    Wilkins Micawber will be proved correct, something indeed will turn up. It is not a conspiracy but greed.

  • 34. Marlin

    (04 October 2012, 10:33AM)  Complain about this comment

    Sometime in your life you just have to take the responsability for your own mistakes. Too much of a" blame someone else society". We have been living on other peoples money and there is always a time to pay the bill.

  • 35. RJ10

    (04 October 2012, 10:50AM)  Complain about this comment

    Conspiracy maybe Just think about how much it costs to build a house ie the bricks and mortar etc Then think about the land(plot) cost Land prices are down down But material costs have not fallen all that much - labour a bit more Energy costs ie the cost of oil and gas are a big input to house material costs Therefore if there is a steep rise in energy prices then no one will be building new or doing much renovating So supply and demand will rule - there are still plenty of people needing somewhere to live ! House prices will stabilize about todays level - after that the only way is up

  • 36. Le Brit

    (04 October 2012, 11:03AM)  Complain about this comment

    I think the article is way of beam, the banks don't want to reposses homes on which they have lent 125% of the inflated value only to recover 50% of the loan when it goes to auction. What kind of business model is that?? Why do you think they are asking for high deposits now, to ensure that they recover their loan if and when the property is repossesed. The BOE is keeping rates low to assist homeowners keep their property and hopefully pay off a bit of the loan before the inevitable comes along and rates revert back to the mean circa 7%
    The housing market is going to drift slowly lower for years to come managed by the BOE, a massive sudden crash will not help anybody banks or homeowners.

  • 37. Aldo

    (04 October 2012, 11:13AM)  Complain about this comment

    No conspiracy; I sold my house 2003 fearing imminent price stagnation/falls and rented, not realising the lunatics were in charge of the asylum. Since then interest rates have zeroed, preventing a house-price collapsed, and, incidentally, forcing me to live on capital.

    I expect that situation to continue, IE no house price collapse, because QE lowers the value of the £. Thus any potential fall in house prices - say max 30% fall - will be offset by 30% max rise in cost of almost everything else, except wages. Result: no significant change in house prices, local deviations excluded.

  • 38. Eddie

    (04 October 2012, 11:16AM)  Complain about this comment

    Not sure if I agree. The main problem as I see it was not just the banks (though the lack of adequate regulation is an issue) but with the great British public themselves - who continually voted for parties whose policy was essentially the same: encourage house prices to rise at several time sthe rate of inflation, thereby making people rich (and feel rich), thereby encouraging spending in a consumer society.

  • 39. Eddie

    (04 October 2012, 11:21AM)  Complain about this comment

    A real solution would involve politicians acting in the longterm interests of this country and not pandering to the public for short-term electoral gain.

    We need to do the following: stop keeping interest rates artificially low and allow house prices to fall massively even if many homes get repossessed; reinrtoduce rent controls, as in Germany; control immigration: fewer people is better than more homes; legislate to put taxes on second homes and also homes over half a million; legislate to force landlords to rent empty properties or pay massive taxes on them; tax buy-to-let landlord's profits maybe; create a new Babyboomer tax, whereby those who have made enormous property wealth lose some of it in a property windfall tax; stop foreigners from buying up property to keep their Euros safe - we'd have to leave the EU to do that.

  • 40. CDA

    (04 October 2012, 11:23AM)  Complain about this comment

    WAKE UP!
    The banks make MORE money strangling companies which are struggling. Those companies have fewer options = higher charges. When things improve to the point where that company can be liquidated at a profit BINGO! Payday for the bank! Has everyone received their amended terms & conditions?

  • 41. rpincowes

    (04 October 2012, 11:30AM)  Complain about this comment

    While the BofE is holding vast amounts of Treasury Bills, they won't want to see interest rates rise, that would trash the value of their holdings.

  • 42. Decurion

    (04 October 2012, 11:33AM)  Complain about this comment

    C***-up (site will not allow word!) not conspiracy. It's the system, stupid. Flawed banking model, hamstrung courts, incompetent regulators, arrogant civil servants, moronic politicians. Caveat emptor.

  • 43. Joe Wilson

    (04 October 2012, 11:44AM)  Complain about this comment

    Which is exactly why it was a tradgedy that the Building Societies (Halifax, Abbey, Northern Rock, Alliance & Leicester, Cheltenham & Gloucester) all demutualised leaving control of the mortgage industry in the hands of profit maximising banks.

    Maybe housing and mortgage markets would be safer if they generally were an inter-generational transfer of savings and mortgages without a profit motive?

    This still doesn't protect each generation from a political cycle which inflates a bubble leaving one generation worse off than the last or 'lucky' because they were able to purchase property at the right time.

    That requires a constitution that protects against excessive intergenerational fiscal transfer and a regulator that targets asset price stability (houses and general inflation).

  • 44. Peter Kellow

    (04 October 2012, 12:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    Tucked into this article on housing was the following pearl:

    .. the story of a pair of hotel owners who borrowed some money from RBS to refurbish their hotel. ... But one week before the hotel was due to open, RBS shut the business down – claiming they had no money left.

    Ultimately RBS transferred the property to its own books, leaving the pair of businessmen short by... £4m. They’re pursuing a fraud case against the bank, saying that they were solvent at the time, and they’ve been done out of their life savings.

    Could we see more of this kind of action from the banks? I suspect so.

    Bengt, which planet have you been living on? This is how banks have operated ever since I have been in business - a long time.

    When less bad results are announced by ANY of the banks behind those figures is a cartload of horror stories of broken lives and businesses

  • 45. Colin Selig-Smith

    (04 October 2012, 12:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bengt,

    It doesn't require a formal conspiracy, it just requires banks to recognise that their interests are aligned,

    When credit is booming they make lots of money and when things inevitably crash they are saved by the central bank.
    If you understand the nature of credit money and are in control of how tight or loose it is, you can increase your wealth by expanding and contracting credit. After all, if you know that credit is going to expand you can invest in markets, like property the stock market and you can be sure that their valuations are going to increase. If you know that credit is going to contract you can exit those markets before everyone else.
    So there *is* a very powerful motive to coordinate expansion and contraction of credit.

  • 46. Natalie

    (04 October 2012, 12:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    There was no conspiracy in the housing market, just bad management underpinned by bonuses and greed.

    Interest rates are bring kept artificially low and money is being given to the banks so that they can make themselves solvent. The fact that they have been insolvent and allowed to get away with it, and we the taxpayer and our children have been paying for them to become solvent with no return on our "investment" - that's the conspiracy.

  • 47. Aldo

    (04 October 2012, 12:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    English & US housing markets are brutally connected with their wider economies. Foreclosures may correct the US housing market quickest, there defaulters are not always pursued to make good a shortfall.

    Why not “ring-fence” English housing finance away from banking, as “Building Societies”, increase its current interest rate (housing only) to 4.5% for deposits & 5.5% for borrowers? This will attract money for mortgages AND likely lower house prices, AS LONG AS the lender has a SANE lending policy of say 20% minimum deposit and 3 times real income.

    A Government fearing re-election could set aside some of the funds so raised to mitigate the risk or effect of foreclosure for, say, 2 years for adjustment to the new situation.

    There’d be unintended consequences but until something like this happens the housing market will remain in unstable equilibrium for years; after this has been done it will be in stable equilibrium and the wider economy will recover too.

  • 48. JimW

    (04 October 2012, 12:26PM)  Complain about this comment

    Making us into debt slaves? Well from a banking perspective its a welcome income stream.

    How about another possible conspiracy.

    When Lehman collapsed we went from inflation to deflation in a matter of weeks because the banks were in trouble. Forward to the present day, we have had inflation up to 5% approx. In USA & Euroland inflation was lower. Do you see where I'm heading? If banks are in so much trouble then why has inflation been so high.

    To put it another way the problem with bank lending is that the reward isn't great but investing in financials products is and the gov.can be easily fobbed off.

  • 49. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 12:44PM)  Complain about this comment

    I am a big fan of Bengt and I think he is simply playing devil's advocate here. Banks are not competent enough to conduct such a conspiracy. They do not want tons of assets at half value sat on the books with nobody able to buy them. They want wage slaves commited to handing over a monthly income stream that they can wrap up as another asset and sell to the "greater fool".
    #4 Paul. The FTSE is lower now than it was in 1999.It is essentially static.

  • 50. Colin Selig-Smith

    (04 October 2012, 12:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    As @16, Frank points out, the US Federal Reserve began it's existence in 1913 as effectively a cartel of the largest US banks.

    The first thing it did was to set off "The Roaring Twenties". A couple of decades of massive credit expansion. Followed inevitably by the bust; "The Great Depression". Given that World War II followed the great depression with tens of millions of deaths, the lesson would seem to be that we need to control the banking industry very tightly indeed.

  • 51. ERWIN TOSELAND

    (04 October 2012, 12:57PM)  Complain about this comment

    May I suggest that you look at "The Kaiser Report" shown on RT newschannel today, 04 October, then tell me you don't go for the "conspiracy" theory. Carry on with the good work, though.

  • 52. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 01:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    #50 Colin. The Great depression began in 1929. How was the Roaring Twenties "a couple of decades"? It lasted 9 years.

  • 53. gain-a lot

    (04 October 2012, 01:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    you are absolutely right.

    Please forward your article to the PR misfits in "Power"

  • 54. Lee

    (04 October 2012, 01:37PM)  Complain about this comment

    Do you blame the banks or the naivety of the consumer? It is of course a double edged sword. This is a consumer credit driven society in which the banks are no doubt happy to feed. Don't worry about the sheep and what the masses are doing just keep an eye on your own ship rather than what Mr and Mrs Jones are up to.

    Not the response of some old duffer but a 40 year old whose proud of his financial achievements on a reasonably modest salary. If you want something you need to make sacrifices rather than simply borrow. Keep your overheads and debt down to a minimum, save and invest. Sounds like old school stuff but it works well. No debt ion twenty years bar the mortgage which will be gone in spring due to massive overpayments.

  • 55. Tony

    (04 October 2012, 01:40PM)  Complain about this comment

    Surely the bigger problem for banks is the toxic debt caused by lending against the artifically inflated prices. When the prices drop inevitably, the bank is insolvent.
    They where a bit panicy about this at the start, but they are sitting pretty with paxpayer bailouts. I can't imagine they would have done that deliberately.

  • 56. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 01:46PM)  Complain about this comment

    BoE rates held for the 44th month in a row. The consensus of predictions for rates is a cut to zero next January with no rise back to even 1% until 2019. Yes another 6 and a half years. Always expect the unexpected. In this case of course that is the great collapse will not come. We have waited since 9/11. we have waited since the Northern Rock debacle. We will now wait another 6 years too.....and it still will not happen.

  • 57. Julian

    (04 October 2012, 02:31PM)  Complain about this comment

    Boris

    The Bank of Japan has kept interest rates at near zero for the last 16 years. If you think that house prices can't fall with very low rates, I suggest you have a look at what has happened in Japan.

  • 58. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 02:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    #57 Julian. I said expect the unexpected. You are trying to impose patterns and look for doppelgangers. Why should we copy Japan? You might as well say we have loads in common with Norway. Cold climate, oil, Germanic traditions, a love of Ikea etc so we will copy them. We won't. I do not believe the doom agenda. It has not delivered in a decade and like many I am sick of hearing it repeated ad infinitum.
    Until this year we were supposed to be rubbish at cycling, golf, tennis, most athletics events and staging major events...... now we are the World's best. Surprising, isn't it unexpected?

  • 59. Nick Fury

    (04 October 2012, 03:26PM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree with Boris, contrary to what should happen and what normal economics should predict, there will be no sudden collapse, maybe an 'invisible' drop due to stagnation and inflation around house prices, but not the great crash. Politicians, lenders & home owners don't want it, coupled with rising costs to build new homes and the inevitable population increase; foreign and domestic will ensure even weak demand persists. Remember house sales are only about half down from there peak and not 10% of it. The only advantage for those waiting to buy a house is, stagnation gives you a chance to get a bigger deposit and a smaller starting mortgage. Good rates too.

  • 60. Beta adjusted

    (04 October 2012, 03:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    There is a huge amount of 'tail risk' to the global economy right now. The government would like to continue this area of 'financial repression' indefinitely as they monetize the debt, but it is entirely possible that they might have to force interest rates to high levels to protect the pound at which point we will have an economic disaster and property will collapse (along with many other things). Otherwise property may remain flat or fall somewhat in nominal terms but in real terms will continue to fall at the rate of inflation (~10% pa?). China is slowing, the Eurozone has huge problems, and the US is approaching the 'fiscal cliff' for example.

  • 61. Julian

    (04 October 2012, 03:50PM)  Complain about this comment

    Boris

    I'm not trying to look for patterns, just merely pointing out that low interest rates don't always stop house prices falling. I've no idea what will happen.

    Why should we copy Japan? Well they had a big boom and a long slow bust and we have had a big boom too. Low interest rates have done nothing for them. It's also a small island where the argument of demand being greater than supply was probably made to say that their house prices could keep going up. That's why we could copy Japan. Your comments about Norway, Germany and Ikea are not really relevant.

    As for cycling,tennis and golf. Unexpected, I don't think so. Britain has been the top track cycling nation for the last three Olympics. Bradley Wiggins and Mark Cavendish are hardly unknown and were winning big races before this year. Andy Murray has been a good player for years as have golfers such as Westwood, Poulter and McIlroy.


  • 62. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 03:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    #59 Thank you Nick. A modest fall is all we can expect now. One good reason is land prices. 30% of new homes are self -build now and of those 60% are on sites that cost over £125k in the first place. It costs £1600k to self-build an average 3 bed home, so you'd expect to pay a small premium to have someone else build it for you. The high cost of land, materials and labour put a safety net under house prices. They may not race forwards for a few years but they sure as heck won't collapse.That is just a myth put about by those who wish they'd bought more property years ago.

  • 63. manabana

    (04 October 2012, 03:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    If I was a money lender, what would I want back from the money I loaned. More money of course!
    Banks don't want your houses, they are only going to get back in bricks and mortar what they gave you in cash in the first place and no more money, so what the point.
    The wise man (banks) will milk a cow rather than slaughter it. With Interest only mortgages Banks will make back over 25 years lots of money on a typical mortgage, even at low interest rates. The real scam was inflating house prices so interest payments on relatively low rates are still profit bearing. Thats why I think there may be another 10-15 years of low rates as we are all harvested.

  • 64. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 04:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    #61 Julian. Until 2012 no Briton had won the Tour de France and no male Briton had won a Tennis grand slam since 1936.
    As for calling Japan a small island. Have you seen any maps? It has 128 million people and is the World's third largest economy. It is bit more crowded that the UK with twice as many people in an area half as big again,but I don't buy the similarities argument we are psychologically a different temperament. They like cottages and we like sushi but we are not twins.

  • 65. Nick Fury

    (04 October 2012, 04:22PM)  Complain about this comment

    Japan's population growth is also decreasing, unlike almost any other country and so affects future demand. I purchased my first flat in 1989, it was down £18K from peak to £42K; a bargain? but still managed to drop to £34K, I was in negative equity for 10 years, but it was still the best thing I ever did, as I sold 7 years ago for £75K, also sold the dreaded endowment for £10K. For a long time it felt like the wrong thing to do, but time showed it was the best investment I ever did, so don't wait too long to buy and get stuck in, long term you'll be glad you did. Get as big a deposit as you can though to decrease initial mortgage.

  • 66. JimW

    (04 October 2012, 04:26PM)  Complain about this comment

    Plus the Japs are, in a way, xenophobic.

    Try opening a business in Japan. Yes, Mothercare was successful but thats because they had very little opposition.

  • 67. tel

    (04 October 2012, 04:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    Not sure about this but; if the Banks foreclose and sell at a loss can they not claw back tax on their previous years tax payments on profits?

  • 68. manabana

    (04 October 2012, 04:41PM)  Complain about this comment

    The real conspiracy are all the house price crash articles by moneyweek and others, which sow seeds of doubt in average buyers minds. Leaving the way clear for those with real money to snap up the distressed sellers properties at bargain prices. Everyone on this thread is a part of the conspiracy.

  • 69. Orb

    (04 October 2012, 04:42PM)  Complain about this comment

    I partly agree with Julian @15, although "2008 x 1000" is a bit of a stretch.

    Currently, big financial institutions and politicians are in a desperate struggle to control the manipulation of the markets. So far markets have not yet realised they are much more powerful, and so they are submitting to the manipulation, albeit not exactly according to plan. But the day will come when they jointly 'rebel', and the last time that happened, George Soros went laughing all the way to the bank!

    As always, the manipulators lost the Big Bet... Oh, but hang on, don't the naive politicians represent the 'ordinary folk'?

    Yep, we'll end up picking up the tab again, but that's just life for the masses. Could we be returning to serfdom?

  • 70. Orb

    (04 October 2012, 04:43PM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting that my submission should have gone in around entry #36, but the mention of my surprise at learning the roots of the current Labour leader must have been the cause for the censorship? Come on MW, censorship in a democracy of free speech??

  • 71. Roberto Birquet

    (04 October 2012, 04:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    These credit bubbles rob people of their savings. They load you up with debt. Then they take away your property in the final bust.
    -----
    Well that is not happening in Britain. Quite the opposite. Desperate to maintain the look of their balance sheets, banks are refusing to repossess mortgage-arreared houses. The so-called Austrians should know that in the US, people willingly give up the houses by handing in their keys.

    More likely is short-termism got banks doling out loans, and passing them on to the fools in the fiancial markets. House prices are notoriously sticky (as owners refuse to sell below the top of the market price even when that's impossible), and only slide on repossessions hitting the market (look at the collapse in volumes this time compared to early 90s - far bigger). The banks seem content not to allow that to happen, and we get zombie market, zombie economy.

  • 72. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 04:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    #70 to 72 Manbana. I beg your pardon. I am not part of any conspiracy to talk HP's down!.
    #67 Jim. That post is priceless.
    #66 Nick You expect us to believe you bought a flat that was worth £60k in 1988 and only £75k in 2005. You were done. HP's trebled in that period.

  • 73. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 05:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    #72 Oops . My post has been rendered babble by the censor who removed the 3 accusations of a conspiracy originally at 70 to 72. This has jogged other posts back so for Jim read #66 and for Nick read#65.
    Got my doubts about the new censorship. I hope there is nothing sinister going on.

  • 74. Theep

    (04 October 2012, 05:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    Around the late '70s or early '80's Barclays foreclosed on a north of England construction company called 'Weldit'.

    The owner sued for wrongful foreclosure and after several years in the courts he was awarded several million in compensation.

    This was the first time a UK bank had been successfully sued for wrongful foreclosure.

    Shortly after winning his millions he was found dead in a burnt out caravan in southern Lincolnshire, the coroners verdict was that he'd killed himself while 'depressed'.

    Not many people who have just won a few million in the courts get that depressed now do they?

    His widow is still fighting for the money, Barclays are still refusing to hand it over.

  • 75. Joe

    (04 October 2012, 05:57PM)  Complain about this comment

    Boris, i suspect that's not censorhip, just cleaning up the duplicated posts - something that quite often happens

  • 76. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 06:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    #76 Joe. Yep Manabana'a post has stayed at 68. He is still wrong.

  • 77. dave

    (04 October 2012, 06:14PM)  Complain about this comment

    I got into serious debt in the mid 000s due to divorce/stress/stupidity/etc.

    I set up an IVA and then got stung for double the amount my debts should have been. I didnt let it fester and owned-up ASAP so there was no way the additional costs could have got that bad. I'm sure the banks simply doubled everything but there was no way to prove it. Strangely the two non-banking debts which were not inflated. All of the debts were repaid 100% or rather best part of 200%.

    How long before many more people fall into the same trap?

  • 78. jack

    (04 October 2012, 07:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    I dont believe its a conspirancy.
    3000 homes a month are being taken by the banks (I dont see many being put back up for sale) wait until intrest rates go up and they will, a mass of property will be forced onto the market and prices will plumit!
    Prices need to move now by forcing anyone with more than one property to sell, that includes banks, councils and profitiers.

    Do it before its to late! COMPLETE FINANCIAL MELTDOWN

  • 79. jack

    (04 October 2012, 07:36PM)  Complain about this comment

    I dont believe its a conspirancy.
    3000 homes a month are being taken by the banks (I dont see many being put back up for sale) wait until intrest rates go up and they will, a mass of property will be forced onto the market and prices will plumit!
    Prices need to move now by forcing anyone with more than one property to sell or an empty property, that includes banks, councils and profitiers.

    Do it before its to late! COMPLETE FINANCIAL MELTDOWN

  • 80. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 08:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    #79 Jack. 3,000 a month is a tiny number. The UK has 25.8 million houses of which 11.3million are mortgaged. The bank repossessions represents fewer than 3 in every 1,000 mortgaged homes, 0r 0.27%. That is a rate of bad debts that many High St retaialers would be proud of.

  • 81. Colin Selig-Smith

    (04 October 2012, 08:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    Boris, do you need everything spoon fed to you?

    From 1913 - 1920 the US M2 money supply increased from ~16 billion to ~35 billion, more than doubled. It doubled over 7 years, this is about a 14% per year increase.
    From 1920 to 1929 it increased again from 35 to 47 billion an annual increase of about 3.5% on average. => The roaring twenties were kicked off by money sloshing about from the previous decade, 1913 - 1929 is if you want to be pedantic 16 years.

    Note there was actually a previous crash in 1920/21 that nobody has ever heard of because it was over in a year. They let the failed businesses die and recovery followed. We on the other hand have several decades of Japan like deflation to look forward to.

  • 82. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 08:37PM)  Complain about this comment

    #82 Colin. In your World the twenties start in 1913 and the Great War seems to be irrelevant.....and of course I'm aware of the 1920/21 crash,which was more to do with readjusting to peace time production and the demobilisation from WW1.

  • 83. jack

    (04 October 2012, 08:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    3000 is 10% of houses being sold at the moment and thats with base rate being at a record low of 0.5% over the last 3 years!

    Wait till that rate goes up by even 1% and then to the norm of 5!

    HOLY S*%* Boris

  • 84. Boris MacDonut

    (04 October 2012, 09:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    #85 Jack. You are trying, unsuccessfully, to fiddle the stats. The proportion of houses being sold at the moment is irrelevant. Banks aren't repossessing "houses being sold at the moment".
    Rates are however expected to go up.........by 0.5%.........in 6 years time. Better start bracing ourselves for the shock of an extra £44 a month to be found by 2018.

  • 85. jack

    (04 October 2012, 09:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    boris, the computer is on but it is a zx81!
    The amount of QE that has been pumped into the country it wont be long before inflation takes off and intrest rates wont have now where to go but up !!!!
    I like the Kiesser report as well, but he is aslo a nut

  • 86. Bernard C Hunt

    (04 October 2012, 10:11PM)  Complain about this comment




    Banks want 20% deposit for a mortgage to ensure there is some equity left in the property if it's repossessed. That assumes someone can buy in the first place. Houses too expensive? So take a house for sale for £200,000. A £40k deposit is required which is out of reach of many borrowers. Ah so we need houses to drop to pre 2008 prices, So push the market down doing us all a favour and offer $150,000. Still got to find 20% = £30k and that's still out of reach. It's no good tinkering with the price in order to buy, it's a lack of cash for a deposit AND a lack of funds in the bank to lend - that's the problem. The only solution is for everybody to get real. Reduce sale prices by one third and offer 100% mortgages. Sellers can thus be guaranteed a sale and buyers can be guaranteed a house, SIMPLE as the advert goes. Anything else is stupid, like waiting for the wind to pick up when be-calmed in a sailing boat. We cannot just sit around the camp fire and hope.

  • 87. Bernard C Hunt

    (04 October 2012, 10:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    Banks are businesses like Tescos or British Airways, they have things to sell. It's not cabbages or seats but money. They are not an extension of the government with some sort of moral imperative to meet the needs of the electorate or honour promises (Don't laugh). We should let the banks wither on the vine, they serve no purpose except to serve their shareholders. We need a national bank owned by the government which is not in business to make money, but its main raison d'etre is to provide a service as defined by parliament to the people of the UK in accordance with rules and well defined regulations which are fair and applicable to all. The High Street Banks can go and play with the funny things they make and trade with their funny a normal clients (Speculators, hedgemen, investors, gamblers, long sellers, short sellers and so on)

  • 88. Alec

    (04 October 2012, 10:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    Don't forget if you have a mortgage you are not a home owner and the lender will "pull the rug" as and when it suites them. The banks are in charge and the government will do whatever they say.

  • 89. jack

    (04 October 2012, 10:41PM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree house price still need to come down, but according to land registry (the only relyable stats) selling prices in most areas are down to 2005 prices but on the other hand right move asking prices are still at the peak!
    Sellers need to wake up there are no more 100% no risk to the buyers motgages left

  • 90. MonkeyinSingapore

    (05 October 2012, 05:27AM)  Complain about this comment

    I have no sympathy for anyone that voted socialist over the past few years and find themselves in debt now.

    It's the government not just the banks.

  • 91. rsl

    (05 October 2012, 11:16AM)  Complain about this comment

    Come rain or shine boom or bust central banks and the government conspire to ensure the continued existence of banks. and the capitalist system. However with regards to the credit and property boom which followed deregulation the 'conspiracy' or unspoken political agenda of low interest rates government incentives and turning a blind eye to reckless lending practices was to compensate for a fall in real incomes over the past 20 years and to create a feeling of wealth and self confidence among the aspiring middle class that all political parties needed to win elections.

  • 92. eddiegeorge

    (05 October 2012, 11:42AM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi Bengt, A well written article and so spot on. Historically, this is how the greatest wealth transfers have occurred: Banks lend out money which is not their own, this is invested in assets and when defaults occur the banks are bailed out with taxpayer money to finance the repossession of assets which are then sold on at a profit when the markets recover. Once governments start printing money and buying back bonds and other loans, a chain of events which cannot be stopped is set in motion. Long term bond investors cash in and will not buy bonds again until long term interest rates reach stability. This cannot happen as the bond rates increase as soon as the buying stops. There is thus no demand for bonds, except from suckers like pension funds, which inevitably lose a fortune for their contributors. This all leads to enormous instability, civil unrest, starvation, massive resentment and rampant inflation. Déjà vu?

  • 93. Nick Fury

    (05 October 2012, 12:12PM)  Complain about this comment

    #Boris Regarding my flat in Bournemouth, it was approx £60K in '88 approx £34K at the lowest during the 9o's and I sold roughly in 2005 for £75K abou a year and a half later it probably touched 90K - after I sold it, so roughly a three fold profit could have been realised with hindsight, but I wasn't so lucky, most of the time I was in negative equity, but the point was over time even I made money, so it paid off. During this time my mortgage rate ranged from nearly 13% to 6%, so a lot can happen; how many of us could handle paying even 6% let alone 13% nowadays? House prices can't go down as most people owe too much against their equity or are in negative equity, so unless they come up with what's short in cash, they can't sell cheaper. The only way house prices will crash is if banks repossess and re-sell at a loss and that's not on the cards (at present).

  • 94. Boris MacDonut

    (05 October 2012, 06:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    #93 No wonder your name is Fury. HP's were at £53k in 1988 and £182k in 2005. You managed to buy at just the wrong time and also sell at the wrong time too. Bournemouth is a fairly average place so missing out on the general 245% price rise is a shame. It is a bizarre quirk of the market to have made it fall 42% in a few years. I can only think the £60k valuation in 1988 was wishful thinking and the £34k valuation over egging the doom. Either way you should have got more than £75k in 2005. Even £100k would seem small.
    As to your other point.I'm sure the vast majority of folk could easily handle rates at 6% and rates at 13% are as likely as Torquay Utd winning the Champions League.

  • 95. Ian

    (05 October 2012, 06:41PM)  Complain about this comment

    Aldo @37 raises a valid challenge - if (as Bendt predicts) there is runaway inflation, then house prices are unlikely to fall in nominal terms - they might stay level or increase and still be falling in real terms. If there's no nominal collapse then no-one's going to be plunged into negative equity and buy-to-let speculators aren't going to be bankrupted since, if they cannot support a rise in borrowing costs, they can always sell...

    There's a big difference between real and nominal falls in the cost of housing!

  • 96. jack

    (05 October 2012, 08:06PM)  Complain about this comment

    It seems to me we are now alot closer to the whole of the world let alone Europe!
    You cant expect the US, Japan, Spain,Greece, Italy (the list goes on) for house prices to make dramatic falls and then not to see the UK to fall in line.
    Its a small world and its spinning faster than you think

  • 97. Orb

    (05 October 2012, 11:36PM)  Complain about this comment

    While Boris & I don't see 'I-2-I' on property as an investment, I can defend him in #94 in that for first time buyers and others with very small deposits, even the best mortgage rates on offer are already back to being not far off 6%. In fact there are plenty of mortgages at and above this level.

    For Ian @95, it wouldn't surprise me if sofas and (not vintage) cars will ALWAYS be worth less than anyone ever paid for them at initial purchase, so under mass distressed conditions, why not houses too? Over the last 4 years, the prices of most of the consumable foods we buy have pretty much doubled, but house prices are marginally less (much less in some countries!)

  • 98. Orb

    (05 October 2012, 11:37PM)  Complain about this comment

    And Jack @96, are you quite sure that house prices in Italy 'made dramatic falls'? And over what period did Japanese house prices fall? And was that in nominal or real terms?

    While I'm sure Boris would disagree, I think I might be in support of the argument house prices in the UK have fallen 'dramatically' in real terms and especially so in international terms.

  • 99. Nina Foster

    (06 October 2012, 08:39AM)  Complain about this comment

    Well this all sounds very familiar. There are 400 elderly victims in the Landsbanki Equity release scheme who have been defrauded out of millions of Euros in exactly this way. The fraud is being continued at administration level it appears despite European legislation to the contrary.
    However they are not taking it lying down, and nor should they. They are faced with losing their entire life savings to the robbers and so naturally they are fighting back. I think the next few months is going to see that justice will prevail.

  • 100. stephenlindbrook

    (06 October 2012, 09:37AM)  Complain about this comment

    One almost senses the prankish ghost of Elvis behind this "conspiracy", not simply colossal ineptitude (inc of borrowers).
    Technically, "foreclosure" means the lender coming to own the property, very rare under English law and practice. That is utterly different from the lender "exercising its power of sale", when the o/s capital plus interest arrears and costs is deducted from sale proceeds - any surplus goes to the borrower. (I understand that US practice is the reverse, but irrelevant here.)
    Therefore there is no "profit" for evil UK lenders to swipe, so the "conspiracy" notion does not hold water.
    That said, the forced sale does almost guarantee a poor financial outcome, but pls be careful with your terminology, to avoid the ignorant becoming even more paranoid.
    I have no personal axe to grind - different greeds drove both parties to the loans, and we now have the fear (of overvaluations coming home to roost).

  • 101. jack

    (06 October 2012, 11:34AM)  Complain about this comment

    98 Orb, it my understanding that Itallian house prices have fallen upto 20% upto now.
    As for japan the housing market has only just reached bottom with a massive fall of 60% over 18 years.
    The UK is making the same mistakes they did

  • 102. Boris MacDonut

    (06 October 2012, 06:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    #101 Jack. It depends when you measure it from. Japanese HP's have trebled since 1975 (37 years is the typical ownership period of a Japanese house) and stands at a typical £110,000 for a 3 bed. Japan in that time has delivered 4% unemployment and an increase of 6 years in life expectancy. But I still feel it is bust for the main reason that it is led by indecisive and unpragmatic traditionalists.

  • 103. jack

    (06 October 2012, 07:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    Im not a statistician or mystic meg, but I do believe if this goverment trys to drag us down the same road as Japan I am going to vote them OUT!
    The US is going to be out of this long before us soley because they let their property prices adjust to sensisble levels before trying to fix it and now growth is achiveable.
    The uk is suffering, house prices are going to fall to an affordable cost (40%+) and now as far as im concerned its down to how long it takes.
    2 years or 20

  • 104. mike

    (06 October 2012, 08:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    a long slow (managed by the banks/govt.) decline in house prices to avoid any hard landing that would play havoc with the economy- hence various Govt. support moves re finance - peanuts really but enough to try to sustain support and confidence AND the fact that whilst mortgages are still available but not as much and not as often etc etc - Interest only mortgages being withdrawn etc etc.
    We are in a new world? no not really as only one in every sisteen pounds which needs to be cut has been cut so far- and we need to cut by many billions- so despite what many say - things things haven't really changed but they are doing so- slowly!

  • 105. jack

    (06 October 2012, 09:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    And the rich richer and poor get poorer.
    And in the mean time the working class has to pay for the
    f%%%%%g lot!

  • 106. Boris MacDonut

    (06 October 2012, 09:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    #103 Jack 40% is just miles out. I revisited the screeds of figures I have been keeping since 1988 and they do indeed indicate that UK HP's are overpriced.......by about 5% compared to the long term average. They need to fall about 5% not 40%.

  • 107. jack

    (06 October 2012, 09:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    hi Boris, Ok maybe 40% is a little over the top but when i bought my first property (13 years ago) it seemed the banks were sincere and would only alow you to borrow 3 and half times your wage.
    Fogive me if im wrong but the average wage today is only £23000 per year. that makes the amount to borrow only £80500.
    If your lucky you could buy a peice of land and afford to put a caravan on it until the planning permission expired.

    The way I see it being happy is the meaning of life, not dept

  • 108. Boris MacDonut

    (06 October 2012, 11:26PM)  Complain about this comment

    #107. Jack. Average wage is £28,200. Average income is £33,500. Median wage is about £25,000. The 3.5 mutiple pertianed when interest rates were at 8%. Today we face rates at or below 2% for the next 8 years or more.
    Don't decry debt, be thankful and use it wisely. Be especially pleased for the little people for whom access to debt was impossible or rationed for centuries. Debt has liberated many ordinary folk and allowed them to lead fulfilling lives. Debt is a marvel for many and is only a dire burden for a few.

  • 109. ROY

    (07 October 2012, 02:46PM)  Complain about this comment

    Don't be so naive!!!

    1st get to know how the world really works before you judge someone's comments and poor scorn on their ideas or perceptions of the world of finance,then look me in the eye and tell me corruption is not endemic in all nations, banks, governments, big business...Money and Power corrupt end off.
    You might not like it but the truth is the truth no matter how many people denied it.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E&NR=1&feature=endscreen


  • 110. Orb

    (08 October 2012, 01:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    Jack @107, I'm afraid you may have blown your cover.... only the financially savvy know not to refer to salary multiples as the begin and end all of eligibility to a home loan. As Boris has pointed out, interest rates are the 'real' deciding factor:

    10 percent of 50k is the same as 2 percent of 250k.

    If a household budget allocates £500 per month towards housing, then as the interest rate drops, so will the mortgage payments. Thus they can buy a 'more expensive' house at the lower rate to fully utilise their budget, and that's what's really driven the 'boom'....

    Then the interest rate starts to creep up again....!

  • 111. La La Land

    (08 October 2012, 11:33PM)  Complain about this comment

    High house prices also mean more money to councils in rate charges, Goverment in stamp duty, estate agents/lawyers in fees, insurance companies in insurance premiums and high immigration and euro fleeing keeps stoking the demand. Low interest rates keeps wage inflation down and high rents and low interest rates for savings keeps BTL demand high and the Ponzie scheme in the Footsie 250 just means that CEO's and those servicing them can keep getting richer from the asperational lower and middleclasses. This will go on for years because we moan about it but DO NOTHING. Oh !and financing unwinable wars for Israel's benefit.

  • 112. jack

    (09 October 2012, 11:47AM)  Complain about this comment

    108 boris, 110 orb

    You are both wrong!

    I checked what I was paying 13 years ago, it was 5.5%!

    For the same product now I would have to pay 4.5%+!

    If they kept to 3.5 X yr wage there would be no mess now and houses would still be afforderable!

    Dont talk crap and get your stats correct Boris!

  • 113. Orb

    (09 October 2012, 04:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    Ok Jack, fair enough: I tried; I failed.

    As an aside, 5.5 percent must have been a good rate back then - much like our 1.49 percent is today!

    By the way, you didn't choose the pseudonym 'jack' for the reference (I've heard previously) to "Just another confused kid"?

  • 114. Boris MacDonut

    (09 October 2012, 09:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    #112. Jack. My figures are correct in as far as they are an average of a wide variety of statistics. I'm not sure where you think I have gone wrong. I have never denied it was possible to get a rate of 5.5% in 1999. Indeed I myself was then paying 5.25%.
    Fact is though, prices will not fall by 40%. However much you wish for it, that is just a fairytale for you and Jill and the Big Bad Wolf.

  • 115. jack

    (09 October 2012, 09:41PM)  Complain about this comment

    Orb, it takes a man to admit he is wrong and it seems you are, but 12 year old boris thinks the average deal was 8% at the time (BOLLOX).

    The answer to your question Orb is that it wasnt the best deal at the time! Cos it was at a five year FIXED!

    If you borrowed more than 3.5 X your wage, get out NOW!
    Sell it to someone with equity or better still someone who has got us into this place in the 1st place, a buy to leter!

    Ask yourself can you afford a nice hoilday? No
    Can you afford a pension? No
    Can you afford to have children? No

    If its No to all three now, wait till intrest rates go up!

    It's ilegal to sell a piramid in this country but it seems the goverment and the banks indorse it!

  • 116. Boris MacDonut

    (09 October 2012, 10:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    #115 Jack.Please enlighten me as to when I said the rate in 1999 was 8%. Are you too self absorbed to read posts without relating them to yourself ? I simply said at post 108 that the 3.5 times income rate pertained when rates were at 8% ,which indeed it did (FYI that would be 1995 to 97 specifically). I could equally have said 5% or even 12% as the 3.5 times ration was valid through the whole 1990's. Indeed I was offered 3.5 times income in 1985. Please don't attempt to tell me what I think. You remain incorrect as prices will not fall by 40%.

  • 117. Orb

    (10 October 2012, 10:55AM)  Complain about this comment

    As many ill-informed people equate acceptable house prices with salary multiples as there are who project hatred towards people who run property rental businesses - I just don't understand why they don't hate the local grocer or doctor with an equal amount of passion; especially as the latter make a CONSIDERABLY greater ROE!

    Not everyone is able to purchase property - whether it be bad credit history, or that they prefer the latest gadgetry to saving for a deposit - and so a gap in the market appears. We all make choices. We'd rather buy, but can't sell our house. So we've let it for a yield of 5.7 percent against the asking price.

    In a year, we had one very low offer on it, yet when it went up for rent, it was taken instantly! Could that be because people would rather hate landlords than pay less to own, or because there is simply a gap in the market for a rental property?

  • 118. Orb

    (10 October 2012, 10:56AM)  Complain about this comment

    So what if some savvy property investors have gotten lucky picking up a property cheaply through auction? They are filling a gap in the market with their cash. In a world of so many business types, property rental has to be one of the lowest ROE, and thus 'rip-off' ones out there!

    Thanks for asking: we're off on our next nice holiday soon; our pension planning looks encouraging; no thanks, if we wanted kids, we'd give up work and go on benefits! Oh, and we have enough cash to kill our mortgage with change if rates get stupid :-)

  • 119. jack

    (10 October 2012, 07:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    Orb 117, or are the people your renting to just waiting until the market falls further?

    There not many 1st time buyers left and they are buying goverment backed new builds, these are proping up the stats falsely!
    They say there is a stale mate between buyers and sellers, but the buyers will win!
    Why?
    The 3 D's - Dept, Divorce and death
    Some people have no choice but to sell and something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

    House prices will fall a hell alot further than 5% and the only peope who tell you that they wont are the ones with houses .

    who can blame them, they are on a cliff edge of losing a fortune that really was never theirs in the first place:)

  • 120. Orb

    (11 October 2012, 09:41AM)  Complain about this comment

    Jack @ 119, thank you for confirming that landlords simply fill a gap in the market ("...the people your renting to just waiting...") - So why the negative sentiment towards them? It's exactly what we're doing: renting while waiting for a reasonable opportunity to come along.

    And I agree: house values have a lot further to fall and I expect they will, but not as much in nominal as in REAL terms (after inflation) and over several years! So our tenants - and we - could be waiting a long time.

    Again, agreed: "...a fortune that really was never theirs..." As the bubble was inflated, the sheeple were lulled into a false sense of security, and it's hard to sell a losing share!

  • 121. Boris MacDonut

    (11 October 2012, 11:48AM)  Complain about this comment

    #119 Jack. Is a "stale mate" what you get if you leave breadwinner in a damp place for too long? I maintain that the maximum further fall for House Prices is indeed 5%. If they follow the long term trend since 1960 they will be 22% higher in ten years time. This represents a modest gain and is always better than renting.

  • 122. jack

    (11 October 2012, 07:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    Orb, I think you misunderstand me, what your doing is survival and not out greed!

    Boris, Orb, Roy (I liked your link) and everyone who had a voice on this I very much enjoyed reading your opinions.

    But now would like to hear from the author!

    How about it Mr Bengt Saelensminde, you awoke our minds and sprits upon reading your article.

    I'd like to hear you opinion on ours

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