What next for Britain's property prices?

By MoneyWeek editor-in-chief Merryn Somerset Webb Oct 08, 2010

Merryn Somerset-Webb

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Merryn Somerset Webb asks MoneyWeek's panel of experts what they think will happen to the property market in the coming year.

Merryn Somerset Webb: Stuart, when we met last year we were all bearish except you. And according to the house-price indices, you were the one who was right. What has happened since?

Stuart Law: I was right purely because I read the data – which were already showing a bounce. And I could see active buyers coming in, people risking real money and making considered judgements. Not speculators – investors. We also didn't believe the hype. James [Ferguson] said we were going to see LIBOR [the inter-bank interest rate against which many mortgages are priced] going through the roof. We thought that was a threat, but one that would be neutralised. Had it not been, this country would have failed to exist; our banks would have failed to exist. What underpins all the banks to a significant level is the value of real estate. So the Bank of England had to sort it out. What would the Bank of England do if the stockmarket was going to halve in price tomorrow? Absolutely nothing. And what would it do if housing was going to halve tomorrow? Absolutely anything in its power because it would kill the country if it happened.

Merryn: So you think the bail-out of the banks, along with ultra-low interest rates, worked?

Stuart: In the short term it has. Now the argument is whether it can continue working in the medium term – over the next five years. That's the uncertain bit. It is obvious where the market will be in ten or 20 years' time.

Merryn: Is it?

Stuart: Britain is a closed-shores market with limited supply. Thanks to lack of funding we aren't going to see any real supply of new housing. But demand is rising. The immigrants didn't go home and all the evidence is that the population is rising faster. So, no matter what the short-term issues are with finance and sentiment, in terms of the big picture, the ten to 20-year view is rock solid.

Merryn: OK. And the five-year view?

Stuart: It is down to how we manage things.

Ed Mead: How the market is in five or ten years depends on how you define a good market. You talk about prices. For me, a good market is about volumes, which are catastrophic at the moment. It's down and it's not going to change for five years, ten years.

Merryn: Why have volumes fallen so much, Ed?

Ed: In London, we've seen a big change in the demographic – a lot of foreigners buying. Foreigners tend to buy for at least a generation – that reduces supply and stamp duty. Across Greater London the average house price is, what, £300,000? So you pay £9,000 just to move. Add the cost of your agent, and so on, and you are talking about 7% or 8% in costs simply to move. That's too much for most people.

Merryn: So you think it's the up-front cost rather than the mortgage famine?

Ed: In London – the market I know – people tend to have access to money, so it is not so much about mortgages.

Stuart: If you're not an estate agent, what does it matter if transactions have fallen?

Henry Pryor: Prices will fall as a result. House prices are based on people's ability to be able to borrow the money to fund the purchase. Right now, only about 8% of the available stock for sale is selling. Go almost anywhere in the country and you can't move for forests of 'For Sale' boards – pretty much anybody can go in and name their price. There are 960,000 houses on the market today – that's 120,000 more than at this time last year. And let's not forget that estate agents make their money from volume more than price. So they are now likely to be leaning on vendors to get deals done. They can't squeeze more money out of buyers, so it has to be sellers who give.

Our panel's view

James Ferguson
Head of strategy, Arbuthnot Securities

One year: -5%.
Five years: -30%.


Stuart Law
Chief executive and founder of Assetz

One year: +4%
Five years: +21.5%


Ed Mead
Director, Douglas & Gordon Estate Agents

One year: +5%
Five years: flat


Henry Pryor
Independent housing expert and buying agent

One year: -9%
Five years: -25%


James Wyatt
Head of Valuation & Surveying at John D Wood & Co.
One year: -5%-10%
Five years: -20%-25%

Stuart: We keep saying that demand isn't real because not everyone who wants a house can get a mortgage. But supply isn't real either. Just because you put your house on the market doesn't mean you are going to sell it, especially if it means taking a hit.

Henry: I take Stuart's point that just because you've instructed an agent doesn't actually mean it's an enthusiastic sale. But the fact that there are many houses that are really for sale is witnessed by the fact that about 30% of houses had a re-evaluation over the summer and have hit the market now with a lower guide price. There are 10,000 estate agents out there who need to work to drive down prices in order to get transactions up and survive.

Ed: I'll give you an example of what Stuart is talking about. Post-Lehman, the market dropped quite substantially. One of my colleagues got three good offers on three houses. They went to the owners and said: "Here you are, three good offers – what do you want to do?" All three withdrew the properties from the market because they were sitting on so much equity that they weren't selling unless they got the price they wanted. And with the cost of debt so low they can do that. Don't forget, there is a two-tier market. For those who have got money and access to money, and can access the cheap mortgages, it's never been better. If you've got a job and you've got access to borrowing, it's fantastic as long as you can find forced or pressured sellers, because they are the only ones who will transact.

James Wyatt: I know quite a few people out there at the moment who are thinking that if they sell now they can do well out of trading up. One point to be clear on is that in a falling market there are three times as many winners as there are losers. The first-time buyer is a winner (if they can buy), as is the second-time buyer who can trade up to a new house at a lower differential. The only losers are the down-sizers. So pensioners are being hammered. Their annuity rates are falling as are their investment yields and now it looks like the value of their houses will fall.

Stuart: We don't yet know prices are going to fall again. Look at a chart combining all of the main indices – Rightmove, Halifax, Nationwide, Land Registry – this is the thing we used to forecast the sustained 17-month bounce in the market. Everybody else said it was a one-month blip. We've had a couple of months where we have glitched back, but we are still in an uptrend. Right now prices are only 6.5% off peak – that's it.

Merryn: And where are they going next?

Stuart: Well, prices couldn't have carried on rising that fast. The fact that prices went down 17% in the first place was due to there suddenly being real forced sellers. Once they had been cleared, things began to move back fast. Most people did not want to sell at those prices.

James Wyatt: You do need a willing vendor for transactions to take off. And there have been academic studies that show there is price stickiness going down. Even now many sellers are just testing the market.

Merryn: But if people don't want to sell, why are they putting their houses on the market? Think of all the couples you know where the woman wants to move house for some reason or other and the man says we are not moving because the price isn't this and the price isn't that. The woman always wins. So all these people testing the market, in the end, for the sake of their families, their lifestyles, whatever it is, they will sell and move. It is just a matter of time.


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James: In the early/mid-1990s I can remember a lot of properties sitting on the market for 18 months to two years. But they did sell. However, there is something in the idea that transactions will be much lower from now on. In 1997 people moved on average every seven to nine years. In 2009 it was every 15 years. Everyone on my street and the surrounding streets has built out and up and also dug down. But they haven't moved. It's too expensive and you can't mortgage your transaction costs.

Ed: Say you are selling a house. You sit there with it on the market at too high a price. You might think the agent will do anything to get the price down and the place sold. But he is also terrified of losing the instruction. So how long do they wait before they cut?

Henry: Not that long. Look at how many July houses are on now at a lower price: 30%. We also know that average asking prices are £61,000 higher than average sale prices. An extraordinary gap. But it looks like the market is getting real now. What we don't know, and I am working on figuring out, is how many of the houses that were on the market in July have come back on with another agent.

Ed: You are saying that one third of all property that was on the market in July is now at a reduced price? I can't believe that.

Merryn: James, you've been very quiet.

James Ferguson: I find it very hard to change my view that prices will fall hard. The thing that's changed dramatically in the last few years, of course, is interest rates. And I agree, I don't see interest rates going up for quite some time. But I don't see them going up for quite some time for bad, rather than good reasons, namely, massive debt deleveraging. We have a full-scale banking crisis still going on; the banks are stuffed up the ying-yang with hidden bad losses, and we know that banks in that situation always contract lending. So net mortgage lending in the UK is just a tiny bit above zero. We've got the lowest base rates for 340 years and we've got a second round of quantitative easing coming up. But quantitative easing round one was equivalent to 14% of GDP and yet we only managed broad-money growth of 1%. If we didn't have Mervyn King doing his damndest to make sure that we appeared to be living OK, we'd be Ireland. And on house prices, we know that one thing that makes house prices go up is mortgage rates going down. So we lowered mortgage rates from the 7% range to the 4% range. Yet prices are not back at anything like what they were even at their peak, so we've done very little given the fact we have shot the most important bolt.

Stuart: Well, we were 17% off and we are now 6% off peak.

James F: Yes, but with rates this low, prices should have doubled. And the transaction point is important. If you want to get prices up you lower the cost of transaction – if you want to get prices down you increase it to make it harder to buy. In the last decade house prices kept going up even as we raised transaction costs, all down to the amazing momentum they had. Now we are seeing the effects. Buyers aren't interested and the only reason prices haven't come down is because of low interest rates. But with interest rates at a 340-year low, it's almost impossible to imagine they are going to go anywhere other than up – in the end.

Merryn: How much will house prices have fallen in five years, James?

James F: The question is whether house prices will stay flat in nominal terms and wait for value to catch up, or whether they will actually fall. It is usually the latter, but this time the authorities are playing a completely new game with rates a tenth of what they would be at in a normal environment. So I think the chances of prices waiting a decade for value to catch up is much higher.

However, I don't think that's what's going to happen. We used to think that in year one transactions would collapse and in year two prices would follow. But two years in, sellers haven't had to get real because interest rates are so low and because we've had a much smaller drop in unemployment than expected. So far. However, with austerity measures coming through, that's going to change.

It is also true that when people die their houses have to be sold off. Perhaps we'll end up with the whole country being like Mayfair, where no one ever moves again. But that's unlikely. So we do need buyers. What the Bank has done (buying people time by letting them sit on their properties with low interest rates rather than sell) is not the same thing as encouraging buyers. Who breaks first? I think it's obvious: it's the sellers. They'll eventually have to sell, whereas buyers can never suddenly be able to buy.

Merryn: And a number?

James F: Five years – down 30% in real terms. But as there won't be any inflation, real and nominal are the same thing.

James W: I agree with a lot of what James says. The best-case scenario is stasis. But there is nothing driving the economy and too much scope for black swans for that to happen – something nasty in North Korea, China, or America, say. If you look at house prices to earnings ratios we are 20%-25% over trend. So we could see a fall of 20%-25% plus.

Stuart: The one thing the government needs to protect is the economy. But in driving the economy forwards one way or the other, they are categorically going to create the seeds of the next asset bubble, and that includes property. They're going to find it hard to separate the incentives to drive the economy, the economic growth, away from things that will drive assets, particularly investment assets. A property buyer, in today's market, is a real investor. There are no savings returns and people are beginning to see the stability of the British residential system. Does it really matter what happens in one, two, three, four, five years? If they can buy a residential property, with insatiable demand to live in it on a rental basis, giving them already 6% yield with a potential to grow at 5% plus a year? The yield tells you where the value is and you are getting a great income.

James W: Doesn't a high yield just tell you that you're going to have trouble getting your rent?

Stuart: No, it tells you where the value will grow in the future. Obviously, there are some mistakes you could make, but you can buy true rental income driven by genuine demand. We've seen two quarters now from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors on rental growth and it's the beginning of a decade of a rental boom. People won't be able to buy and it will be horrifying how unaffordable rental housing will be.

Merryn: So where will people live?

Stuart: In rental houses. They will just stop buying fancy handbags and hand the money over to landlords instead. If rents are going up by 5%-10% a year for the next few years then slowing down a bit, that will support house-price growth.

James W: I think rental yields are going up too. But that's because house prices are going down.

Merryn: Can you give us a number?

Stuart: Our generic long-term view has always been about 5% a year – even in these conditions. Now I'd moderate that to 4% compound, or 21.5% in five years. The one major threat to this might be the FSA's new affordability criteria, which will make the mortgage market even tougher.

Merryn: OK, so where will prices be in a year?

James F: Down 5%.

James W: Down 5% to 10%.

Stuart: Up 4%.

Henry: Down 9%.

Ed: Down 5%.

What's the latest on house prices?

The annual change in prices, as measured by the Halifax, Nationwide (sales prices), and Rightmove (asking prices) indices.

Halifax: current price £168,889 (16% off peak); Nationwide: £166,757 (10.4%); Rightmove: £229,767 (4.9%).

Where are prices heading next?

Each month, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) asks surveyors and agents where they think prices are heading. It's a good lead indicator. This chart shows how the RICS result tends to lead the Nationwide house price index by about six months.

What mortgage approvals are saying

The British Bankers' Association covers about 70% of gross mortgage lending in Britain. So its monthly tally of 'loans approved for house purchase' is a good guide to housing market activity and the outlook for prices – as this chart shows.

The Carpetright house price indicator

Carpetright is Europe's top specialist floor-covering retailer. So its stock price is a good guide to activity in the market – when people move, they often buy new flooring. Again, this also proves to be a good indicator for future moves in house prices.

This article was originally published in MoneyWeek magazine issue number 507 on 8 October 2010, and was available exclusively to magazine subscribers. To read more articles like this, ensure you don't miss a thing, and get instant access to all our premium content, subscribe to MoneyWeek magazine now and get your first three issues free.

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  • 1. w2w

    (09 November 2010, 11:41AM)  Complain about this comment

    Quote from article "What would the Bank of England do if the stockmarket was going to halve in price tomorrow? Absolutely nothing. And what would it do if housing was going to halve tomorrow? Absolutely anything in its power because it would kill the country if it happened. "

    The BoE couldn't stop a 50% drop between 1990-95, so why believe they can now. Property is 20%+ overvalued re wages, with interest rates a rock bottom. When rates are forced up, by the Bond market, property prices will crash. Demand is mostly based on expectations and expectations will be modified. The BoE can't continually use bouts of QE, they are just postponing the day of reckoning.

  • 2. Tom O'Neill

    (09 November 2010, 12:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    "What underpins all the banks to a significant level is the value of real estate."
    The most chilling sentence in the article, imo.
    So the Bank of England and the government will do everything to support all the greedy over-borrowers who bought at the top of the market, the LA housing pretenders with two or more houses in different names in different boroughs, the wealthy foreign money-launderers with mansions no one will ever live in, the politicians with multiple tax-payer subsidised 'homes', and as for the working taxpayer and private investor - let them eat cake, or as one of the panellists contemptuously put it 'They will just stop buying fancy handbags and hand the money over to landlords instead.' The authentic voice of the BTL speculator.

  • 3. Bertha Vanation

    (09 November 2010, 01:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    I stopped reading when I read Stuart Laws remark about the 20 year outlook, limited supply & immigrants. This is naïve and blinkered. The issue is affordability, plain & simple. How prosperous will this country be in 20 years time?

    No one knows for sure but what is certain is that the principle element that has underwritten global prosperity for the last 50 years has been cheap plentiful energy. With that crutch kicked from underneath the world economy, I cannot see how there will be the level of individual prosperity than can support high property prices, regardless of supply/demand.

  • 4. AdamB

    (09 November 2010, 02:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    By all measures, housing is too expensive.

    It's time to lance this ulcer and let the blood letting begin.

  • 5. Brian Darby

    (09 November 2010, 02:55PM)  Complain about this comment



    All these words mean little when compared to "confidence"

    If the buyers suspect or even see evidence that prices are falling
    even by 5% they will hold back until they see the reverse happening.
    This is unlikly to happen for some time in which case there will be further falls.
    Just like the stock market in fact when the public always start
    buying on a rising market.

  • 6. J.D.

    (10 November 2010, 12:00AM)  Complain about this comment

    Stuart is not saying the housing market is going to go off like a rocket up your trouser leg anytime soon, he says fairly STAGNENT GROWTH in the next 5 years. Boom & Recession is part of the 15 to 18 year cycle, we are coming to the tail end in 1.5 to 2 years(evidence is the public spending cutts that come around at back of any cycle downturn, starting now !) But in 1.5 to 2 years, house prices will rise again, and forced renters will start to buy again, the British public will love thier appreciating assets again because of the free flow of finances. It's played out the same way countless times before. (go on Google it) The UK office of statistics published data says UK inhabitants will swell over the next 9 years by 8 MILLION, and they aint building more houses or printing any more land on this tiny little island, Supply and demand conclude that - sad but true, UK house prices are headed in one single trend over the next 20 years, and that is UP.

  • 7. neil

    (12 November 2010, 10:59AM)  Complain about this comment

    Does Stuart not understand that last year's bounce in prices was against very low transactions and with ultra low rates? There is no more cheap credit to create another boom and when rates ease up even a quarter point, there'll be another wave of downward pressure on already falling prices.

    It's one thing having a vested interest in prices rising, but quite another making an utter fool of yourself with inane theories and predictions.

  • 8. Ed

    (12 November 2010, 11:22AM)  Complain about this comment

    QE and low interest rates are the only reason that the country is still here and hasn't been formally repossessed. The elephant in the room hasn't gone away, it's just sitting in the corner wearing a fancy dress and waiting for the orchestra to finish warming up.

    I work in London in the property sector and deal with hundreds of estate agents every week and the over-riding sense is one of fear as offers are collapsing at a frightening rate. One group of agents said that in January, 'Sold subject to contract' offers had a fall out rate of around 5%. At the end of October, the rate was 48%.

    In the long term, Stuart is right, there's only a finite number of houses, but if no one is able to afford the cost of buying them or renting them, it doesn't matter how many houses you've got.

  • 9. QS1234

    (12 November 2010, 11:29AM)  Complain about this comment

    JD,

    You need to educate yourself on the facts. Your statement regarding supply and demand is completely false. We have plenty of land to build on, it's all about the planning system and the supply of credit. A tiny percentage of the UK land supply is in fact 'developed land'. A typical comment from an uninformed individual. Look at the housing situation in Japan.

    If all the farmers in the UK released 2% of their land there would be a massive surplus of housing supply even taking into account immigration.

    An increase in house prices is mainly down to an easy supply of credit. Most believe that the quantitative easing coming will be a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of debt that needs to be absorbed.

    Finally the London housing market does not reflect the rest of the UK

  • 10. TheCountOfNowhere

    (12 November 2010, 12:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    House prices are recovering now all over the country.

    There is no way on this Earth that prices will be lower in 2011 than they were in 2009. Anyone who thinks so needs to get in the real world.

    The time to buy is now while there are still some great deals out there from mortgage companies.

    Merryn got it right when she bought earlier in the year.

  • 11. AS88

    (12 November 2010, 12:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    'House prices are recovering now all over the country. '

    Your source please!

    'The time to buy is now while there are still some great deals out there from mortgage companies. '

    Mortgage lending is at an all time low.

    'There is no way on this Earth that prices will be lower in 2011 than they were in 2009. Anyone who thinks so needs to get in the real world. '

    In real terms house prices will very likely be lower in 2011 than in 2009.

    We'll speak again in 2011.

    A vested interest perhaps?

  • 12. Eco Nomics

    (12 November 2010, 01:32PM)  Complain about this comment


    Nice long winded debate full of waffle and hearsay.

    The simple answer is The UK housing market is bust and prices are going to decline for many years.
    It would actually be better for the country if 40% was wiped off asking prices this afternoon.

  • 13. Bob Bystander

    (12 November 2010, 01:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    I have a car worth £5000. I'm asking just £8000-00 for it, or you can buy my boat which is ideal for lavish squanderers like yourselves, it cost me £4000-00 on Ebay, and its a steal at £7500.00. Or you can buy my house in Bloomsbury, it cost £200-00 to build, £2-00 deposit and 5/- pw, its full of character forming woodworm, damp and spalling brickwork, and the taxes and heating bills will drive you mad, better still at Xmas the lights go out on their own adding a rather nice festives touch, for just an miserly £750k who are you to complain? And the 'best-buy' winner is the car, then the boat and the house comes well and truly last. Property is the most over hyped item offered for sale in the British Isles, and prices need to come down 45% over the next 3 years.

  • 14. GA-09

    (12 November 2010, 02:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    Stuart's comment about investment is most correct in my view.

    I am in the process of first time buying for the simple fact that with a reasonable deposit I can pay £500 pcm in interest against a rental cost of £1,500 pcm for the same type of property.

    It is this type of situation that will at least maintain prices as here in the UK housing is seen very much as an investment market. This argument about wages and prices I find somewhat tiresome as much as I wanted to beleive it and pick up a deal in the 'crash'. With all the other negative factors out there interest rates are unlikely to move for a while and returns on capital are scarce.

  • 15. JR

    (12 November 2010, 02:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    I think house prices are great. Every time I feel depressed I simply open up the local paper and turn to the estate agents advertisments, check their telephone numbers valuations and roar with laughter. It works every time. So stop taking the prossac or whatever its called and pop in to your local friendly estate agent.

  • 16. Paul Claireaux

    (12 November 2010, 02:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    merryns house purchase is, by her own admission, NOT a sign that good value is here again.
    The UK housing market remains ABOVE the valuation levels (price to earnings) that it reached at the height of the last boom.
    As the CEO of Barclays observed at the end of 2009 a this house price correction is only part way through.
    As many have observed here the only thing propping up prices now is the ridiculously cheap cost of credit.
    And to quote Merryn herself from an earlier Article - when you have interest rates that can only go up and with millions losing their jobs or in fear of same there is only one outcome here.

  • 17. Mike

    (12 November 2010, 03:22PM)  Complain about this comment

    And in the meanwhile people will sleep on the street and rent will fall.
    Come on wake up...Renting property is still good business for landlords and so long there are demand, I won't sell. Plus the interest I am paying is only 0.6%. £500 rental income on a property worth £100,00 (now and £198,000 in 2006!), who would sell.

  • 18. Nick

    (12 November 2010, 06:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    "Stuart: We've had a couple of months where we have glitched back, but we are still in an uptrend. Right now prices are only 6.5% off peak – that's it."

    Look at the actual averages reported by the indices and you will see that the Halifax peaked in January and the Rightmove and Nationwide both peaked in June. Prices have been falling slowly all year and the falls, whilst intermittent, appear to be accelerating. Hardly what you'd call an uptrend. Even the relatively stable 3-month moving averages for these indices have started to drop, when most people have barely begun to feel the austerity measures, let alone the new FSA rules, Basel III and the expiry of the Special Liquidity scheme which will all hit around April.

  • 19. Sheldon

    (12 November 2010, 07:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    Merryn,

    I think UK house prices have fallen far more than most people think. House prices in nominal term and in pounds have not fallen much, however, when you consider inflation in other goods and quote house prices in other currencies like USD / AUD or even EUR. There has been quite a correction from the 07 peak.

    It would be good for moneyweek to publish a UK house price in other currencies and see what is it like.

    Sheldon

  • 20. Siwilts

    (12 November 2010, 08:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    House prices will fall over the coming years - there has to be a rebalance. People latching onto house price indices as evidence that things are not that bad are conveniently forgetting that the headlines nearly always refer to them on a national basis. Look beneath and one will see that there is a wide variation in the house price index when viewing from a regional basis. Foreign cash buyers in London and the S.E. are effectively underpinning the indices and creating a false impression of national house prices holding up on average.
    No - in most areas prices are falling. The next few years will see areas outside London experiencing falling house prices, as credit remains tight. We are in for at least 5 years of a depressed housing market.

  • 21. Simon

    (12 November 2010, 09:40PM)  Complain about this comment


    @19. Sheldon

    Good to see someone can look beneath the layers. So many contributors on here are only looking at the 'price in pounds'. I'm Australian (lived in the UK 10 years) and was wishing to move back to Oz. Came here 10 years ago (£1 = $3.05), 2007 (£1=$2.60) and now... £1 = lucky to get $1.50. So, although you think houses have not corrected, they already have: 40 - 50% for foreign buyers such as Australians. The UK government has crashed the currency - easier to fool the masses in thinking their properties 'priced in pounds' have not fallen much. I would dearly love a crash to get in on the market but the crash has already happened. I'm stuck as 'my pounds' are now worth nothing when I would try to export them to Oz. So, I'm now British! That means frozen wages, and full priced houses against the foreign money getting property for a great deal. Sorry guys to spoil the party, but Sheldon @ 19 is right on the money.

  • 22. markopolo

    (12 November 2010, 10:50PM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting reading,amazing how so many people can see a situation so differently.For me I think house prices are clearly coming down.What most readers are missing is inflation.If house prices keep constant over say five years in real terms house prices have come down 20 - 25%.In my area house prices are cheaper now than seven years ago.

  • 23. Paul Jones

    (13 November 2010, 01:49AM)  Complain about this comment

    I'm surprised nobody mentioned the effect the low base rate and QE has on imported inflation (food, oil, gas, etc). Inflation is the ultimate stealth tax, shrinking peoples spending power on everything, including new houses and rent. We're all paying and the BoE can't QE every year, can they?

  • 24. Jason Cropper

    (13 November 2010, 01:24PM)  Complain about this comment

    A house is a home.
    This is what happens in the rest of Europe the debt is passed on.
    Why do we want to own bricks and mortar?
    The number of mortgage holders who are unable to pay the debt back is huge and the number who are sitting on Interest only is a large problem that can only get worse.
    To get capital growth on cash is not possible and stock markets are still over valued.
    People in the UK have no real savings and no assets and high debt.
    Most are govt workers and thus take from the country we need to go back to a "make something" country.
    Just watch China and Asia be the new no1.

  • 25. Peter Kellow

    (13 November 2010, 02:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    No one has thought to view the current property market from the point of view of how we got here.

    How did we? By means of a five decades long Ponzi scheme whereby the banks created excess money available for people to buy properties so engineering higher and higher prices so creating more and more debt.

    The current valuations only attained their level due to all the Ponzi money that has been created. The MW panel know this so why don't they say it - although JF comes close

    We are now on the summit of the Ponzi pyramid. Sure you can maintain equilibriam on the point for a while if people can still afford to repay the debt. And may be they will do that for quite a while. But a market that ain't. It is just a holding operation.

    Sometime the market will intrude with its realities and the scheme will unravel - as all Ponzi schemes do. All talk of supply and demand is irrelavent when the motor behind the pricing in the first place was the creation of excess money.

  • 26. Peter Cooper

    (14 November 2010, 06:06AM)  Complain about this comment

    It seems the combination of super-low mortgage rates and the long rally in stocks has convinced City folk that we are in a new era for housing where price adjustments can only ever be small and that means you just have to pay these prices or rent forever. A second global financial crisis is looming with much lower share prices, banking crises and much higher interest rates, plus the UK government is on an austerity kick. That housing might stay so overvalued in that environment beggars belief and those who have just bought against their own best advice to others will rue the day!

  • 27. Daniel

    (14 November 2010, 10:52AM)  Complain about this comment

    Pricing anything in any currency is bound to give different opinions on the value and direction of anything, be it house prices, commoditities or stocks.

    If you look at the major currencies in most countries housing has been in a bull market for the last 10+ years (with the exception of Switzerland, Germany and Japan) but if you price them in gold, property has been losing value over the same period.

    The PRICE of property in a CURRENCY is the small picture.
    The true VALUE of property priced in Gold is the big picture.

    In truth house prices have not been in a bull market at all for the last 10-15 years, for decades currencies have been crashing.

  • 28. Alex

    (14 November 2010, 04:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    Sheldon, Simon etc . . . what do the majority of people use to purchase UK property?

    Yes the good old £GBP Sterling.

    So for all you people saying that property values have already fallen because the value pound has fallen against other currency's then frankly you don't have much of a clue.

    Largely people buy UK houses in Pound's not Euro's, Yen, Gold, Oil or any other currency/commodity you care to mention.

    In £GBP terms the price of housing has not yet fallen all that much from it's 2007 peak. So expect a big, big correction any time soon. Wages rising at less than the rate of inflation will only add fuel to the property crash bonfire.

  • 29. Daniel

    (14 November 2010, 11:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    Sorry Alex but it looks like your the confused one around here.
    Obviously people don't buy houses in gold and oil!

    However, by pricing houses in something that can't be printed to hell, you can get a clearer understanding to weather houses, stocks or anything for that matter is undervalued or overvalued.

    This won't tell you the short term direction but will help stop you buying at the top of a bull market.

    Yes I agree house prices are overvalued and a correction is likely, that doesn't change the fact that the house price boom had more to do with the pounds weakness than it did with the cost of bricks and mortar going up.

    Price and value are not the same thing. As I said before currencies have been slowly losing their value for decades.

  • 30. Lord Numpty

    (15 November 2010, 02:02AM)  Complain about this comment

    But surly the biggest elephant sitting in the room is the lack of pension provision by the under 40’s. When this is finally addressed (I suspect some form of compulsion will be necessary) disposal incomes will fall even more and there will less spent on mortgages and rent.

    I think that there will be an increase in rental demand which will provide a platform for prices


  • 31. Simon

    (15 November 2010, 01:49PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ 28.Alex

    Thanks for informing both Sheldon and I that we don't have a clue :).

    You are right that British people buying UK property are using sterling currency. For me with sterling in my pocket, there has been no crash, nor for all the other 'locals' with the 'local currency'. However, the increase in prices especially in London (and the flow on effects)is because of the influx of foreign currency. For me, UK property is out of reach with my sterling savings in the bank. Australians a one mere example, are picking up UK property at a 40% discount since 2 years ago, because of the devaluation of the pound. The devaluation of the pound that is one of the big reasons for keeping prices where they 'appear to be' ... it's just numbers and the real loss in on the currency. Just try and move your sterling abroad... reality of this will hit home. It's all about 'making the economy more competitive' so we are told :).

  • 32. Alex

    (15 November 2010, 02:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    Yes but what percentage of UK property buyers are from abroad? A very, very small percentage - except perhaps in London which is really a different market to the rest of the UK anyway.

    The UK housing market is really mostly a UK market. It's a market where British people buy houses in which to live (or sometimes to rent out). It's not like currency, gold, silver, oil, shares or bonds (etc) which are true global commodities.

    What matters to 99.5% of the house buyers in this country is the price of a property in sterling. That's because people are paid in Sterling and they spend in Sterling.

    Fairly simple really.

  • 33. Alex

    (15 November 2010, 02:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    To add, valuing property in terms of multiples of income, or perhaps more appropriately the availability of credit would give a far truer indication as to the value (or otherwise) of UK house prices.

  • 34. Simon

    (15 November 2010, 06:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    'Fairly simple really.'

    I beg to differ :).

    So, if sterling remained at it's long term average, would London property prices have held up, or even gone up in most instances? People are shaking their heads that with a 'credit crunch', and asking how property prices haven't crashed? Ultra low interest rates and devaluation of the currency. London leads the way down and it leads the country back up. Interest rates are n't going up markedly for a very long time and the government has and is doing all it can to keep it this way. They also wish to maintain a weak currency in an attempt to help boost exports. Dream of a crash - reality is that it's happened under anothr guise. Simple really :).

  • 35. Alex

    (16 November 2010, 09:28AM)  Complain about this comment

    Okay Simon so if you are correct and houses have actually already crashed then I guess that would make them much more affordable perhaps?

    Well that's not the picture on the ground now is it - and I'm not talking about the UK as a whole, not just London.

    Comparing housing to gold or perhaps some foreign currencies of course housing has de-valued over the last couple of years simply because the £GBP has fallen. But most people don't buy houses in gold of foreign currency do they?

    There has not been a time in recent history when housing was more unaffordable. House prices are still way above the historical link with earnings. Peoples wages are not increasing, house prices remain stubbornly high and getting a mortgage has never been harder.

    I think the mistake you are making is that you are seeing UK housing as a global commodity when in reality it's still a broadly UK market - houses purchased by UK residents mostly using £GBP and mostly for their family to live in.

  • 36. Daniel

    (16 November 2010, 10:04AM)  Complain about this comment

    I know you will tell me that people do not buy stuff in gold but maybe thats part of the problem. The USA were taken off the gold standard in 1971 by Nixon which meant the the worlds reserve currency was no longer needed to hold gold in order to print more currency. Recently there has been some talk of some form of return gold backed currencies but we will have to wait and see.

    The point is much, much bigger than UK residents buying houses in £GBP and have they crashed yet or not. Millions of people have bought houses thinking they have made X amount of profit over the years but unbeknown to many, they have made a loss through devaluation of their currency.

    Plus add to the fact that many of these people have and still plan to use the house they live in as their pension. The big picture is far bigger than if there will be a 30% correction or not.

  • 37. CHRIS

    (16 November 2010, 10:16AM)  Complain about this comment

    I believe the house market is over valued and will see a further downward trend over the next few years. Adding to this the lack of free credit even at low intrest rates will further help in pushing down prices. The only thing holding how price at what it is as of today is just that people must have where to lay their heads by end of play every day and to that effect will have to pay the most they can afford to have a house. Powers that be know this and are struggling with what their next move will be to keep prices up hence the drop in building new homes and an increase in demand.

  • 38. Simon

    (16 November 2010, 11:59AM)  Complain about this comment

    Daniel @ 36.

    Very well explained - certainly makes sense. A classice case of seeing a horse, but really just 3 guys inside a horse costume. I agree whole-heartedly with your statment:

    'Millions of people have bought houses thinking they have made X amount of profit over the years but unbeknown to many, they have made a loss through devaluation of their currency.'

    Set aside the super low interest rates, there may be some continued crash ... I did say 'continued' ... or more money-printing and devaluation with low interest rates should preserve the 'Sterling value' of property :)


  • 39. marcopolo

    (19 November 2010, 11:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    House prices will very slowly come down mostly due to inflation.
    If prices crash banks will be holding assits worth far less than money owed,resulting in banks going bust.This would result in
    the government bailing out the banks once more which it simply cannot do.So the government will do everything it can to underpin
    the price of property for now while racking up inflation to erode det.

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