What first-time buyers really need is lower house prices

By MoneyWeek Editor John Stepek Sep 23, 2010

John Stepek

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It's been a grim week for anyone who wants high house prices.

On Monday, property website Rightmove reported that asking prices fell by 1.1% in September. That's the third decline in a row. Meanwhile, in August, gross mortgage lending fell to £11.4bn, down 14% on the month, and the worst total for the month of August seen in ten years.

On the other hand, it's been a great week for people who like the idea of paying more money for their clothes and food. Cotton hit a new high, at a time when retailers are already warning of rising clothing prices. And of course, we've all heard about surging grain prices.

Does that sound daft? It is. But it makes no more sense to cheer rising shelter costs than it does to be pleased about rising food or clothing prices.

And yet, we still can't seem to get our heads around the idea that falling house prices might actually be a good thing.

New FSA rules are a little late arriving

The property market is in a pretty unhealthy state. The Bank of England's slashing of the bank rate (what we all used to call the base rate) to 0.5% has helped to prop the market up. But the number of sales is running at about half the rate it did before the credit crunch.

And now the Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) is fretting that new rules from the Financial Services Authority (FSA) will make things even worse.

"The golden age of home-ownership is over, for the moment," declared Michael Coogan, director general of the CML, yesterday. "New conduct rules for… lenders will not help borrowers meet their aspirations to become home owners."

The FSA wants to control things like self-certification loans (also known as 'liars' loans') and interest-only mortgages, and all the other things that allowed people to buy homes they couldn't otherwise afford.

At heart, the FSA wants borrowers and lenders to work within a housing finance model that isn't dependent on ever-rising property prices to remain sustainable. In other words, it wants to stop the housing market from being the legalised pyramid scheme that it was before the credit crunch. And the FSA wants to do this because it clearly thinks that banks can't be trusted to do it themselves.


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It's a bit late for all this, you might think. And you'd be right. Imposing such controls, now that house prices are historically hugely overvalued, would make it a lot harder to get a mortgage. And chances are house prices would fall as a result. Indeed, the FSA admits as much in its Mortgage Market Review.

But the FSA also points out that introducing these rules during a downturn is actually better than doing it when the market begins to recover. Because lenders are already being cautious because of the overall economic climate, the impact of putting the new rules into practice will be less severe.

Of course, the vested interests don't like this idea. And why would they? Boom and bust is a very pleasant economic model, if you get to take the profits during the boom, and hand the taxpayer and, more explicitly, savers, the consequences during the bust.

"We do not want to sleepwalk into a housing finance market which is sustainable, but meets almost nobody's aspirations because it is so risk averse," warns Coogan.

Banks don't exist to meet people's aspirations

But wouldn't a sustainable housing market be rather nice? We like stable prices in most other areas of our lives. And perhaps if lending patterns were more stable, we could get a better handle on exactly how much of a problem the physical supply and demand side really is. Rising prices would signal genuine shortages of property, rather than gluts of credit.

As for 'aspirations' - since when did banks and building societies exist to meet people's aspirations? As small business owners might be painfully aware, they technically exist to direct depositors' capital towards enterprises that will produce a decent return, with a bit on the side to cover the bank's costs. That's why we want them to be careful with who they lend money to.

They're not there to give you whatever amount of ready cash you need to meet your 'aspiration' to open a café in a street that already has ten of them. Or your 'aspiration' to leverage your £30,000-a-year income into a £200,000 mortgage. And before the bust, banks were only happy to help people with their 'aspirations' because they thought they were offloading the risk to some other stupid chump.

First-time buyers need lower house prices

Here's what will help first-time buyers meet their aspirations: lower house prices. It's much easier to save up a 25% deposit if property prices are actually affordable.

Now, we can have a debate about the wider economic damage a further fall in house prices would have right now. It probably wouldn't be pretty. But let's not pretend that this is all about helping the poor huddled masses of first-time buyers, condemned to rent (as if that were a bad thing in itself). This is about lobbying to keep propping up banks and homeowners at the expense of savers and long-term economic stability.

Of course, with the Bank of England rate already as low as it can go, and inflation surprisingly sticky, there might not be any way to prevent house prices from falling. In which case, why not take steps right now to prevent the next boom and bust cycle from kicking off?

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  • 1. David

    (23 September 2010, 12:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    Excellent article, John, and your logic cannot be faulted. If only the establishment had thought like this 10 years ago ....

  • 2. neil

    (23 September 2010, 12:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    Spot on article - however, it'll take a huge shift in public opinion to regard falling prices as a good thing. The brain-washed masses have been fed on an endless diet of property porn during the past 10 year bull-run and many, I'm sure, regard property investment as their ONLY form of pension.
    The forthcoming correction will certainly dissuade more speculators but it'll be sticky on the way down due to price fall resistance from so many quarters...unless we see IR rises, big increase in unemployment, etc. and consequently more forced sellers.

  • 3. Alyson

    (23 September 2010, 12:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    But even if property prices in the UK drop as the cuts take effect, or correction rather, sterling might weaken and BRICS companies will buy up the stock. The government should bring in more help for young couples setting up a home.

  • 4. Jon

    (23 September 2010, 12:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    The government still seems to be keen on propping up house prices by talking about various first time buyer schemes.

    Letting house prices fall has to be better than saddling people with a lifetime of debt.

  • 5. Don

    (23 September 2010, 12:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    Great article.

    Loads of people will openly disagree with this article, as it is in their interests to do so. These people aren't morons, as they have a clear motiviation for doing so.

    However, anyone who honestly, privately believes that the above is anything other than completely sensible is, in my opinion, a moron.

  • 6. Terry

    (23 September 2010, 12:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting that you're still trying to talk the market down, meanwhile everyone in the moneyweek office are off buying large period properties around the county.

    What you actually think about house prices and what you write to try and make a living are clearly two very, very different things.

    Good luck with your investments. I hope house prices return to normal levels soon and you realise a decent profit.

  • 7. j barrows

    (23 September 2010, 12:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    Excellent article - if only individuals in the banking industry had to take some exams in logical thinking and probity the world would be a much better place. Michael Coogan is either acting rather dim or he just doesn't give a damn. He understands full well that tighter restrictions on credit will cause house prices to fall thus improving affordability in terms of price, (although the fall would impair banks' balance sheets which is why he's opposed). Yes banks may demand a decent sized deposit and limit the multiple loaned, but that's as it should be. What we don't need now is a 'stimulus' aimed at first time buyers - as being called for by the chief exec at Redrow - yet another example of lazy, illogical, shallow thinking. When is the bail out culture going to end? FTBs don't need a bail out, they need sensible prices and in any case why should other taxpayers be subsidizing FTBs? - It makes NO sense. C'mon CML et al. - GET A BRAIN

  • 8. j barrows

    (23 September 2010, 12:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    Excellent article - if only individuals in the banking industry had to take some exams in logical thinking and probity the world would be a much better place. Michael Coogan is either acting rather dim or he just doesn't give a damn. He understands full well that tighter restrictions on credit will cause house prices to fall thus improving affordability in terms of price, (although the fall would impair banks' balance sheets which is why he's opposed). Yes banks may demand a decent sized deposit and limit the multiple loaned, but that's as it should be. What we don't need now is a 'stimulus' aimed at first time buyers - as being called for by the chief exec at Redrow - yet another example of lazy, illogical, shallow thinking. When is the bail out culture going to end? FTBs don't need a bail out, they need sensible prices and in any case why should other taxpayers be subsidizing FTBs? - It makes NO sense. C'mon CML et al. - GET A BRAIN

  • 9. Paul

    (23 September 2010, 01:03PM)  Complain about this comment

    Years ago, the maximum mortgage offer was 3 times salary (sensible?) and about 80% valuation. For someone today on an 'average' salary of £25K, that means that average house prices should be around £100K, with plenty of properties available below that. Current actual average prices are quoted as about £160K. So prices need to fall by about 30-40% for a healthy market, which needs lots of first time buyers. Does this make sense?

  • 10. Andy

    (23 September 2010, 01:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    The media as well as the banks have a lot to answer for when it comes to property prices.

    Endless streams of garbage reality telly convincing the terminally insecure that owning a house will make them a better person. Gleeful reporters smugly pointing out that property prices have risen again (like that's a good thing)? Budding yet clueless amateur property developers egged on by talentless long haired 'designers' of dubious sexuality from morning until night. Perfectly vomit inducing couples filmed searching for that 'second home in the country'.

    It's just a shame that the media did not make more programes instead inspiring young boys and girls to be engineers or perhaps entrepreneurs and business leaders.

    Instead though we are left with a legacy of debt and a housing market that is spectacularly over valued and decidedly broken.

    That's why I've decided not to pay my license fee this year. Thanks BBC, and of course ITV and C4.

  • 11. adam

    (23 September 2010, 01:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    Couldn't agree more!

    What is actually propping prices up though? Seem to be a stable base at the moment of people convinced its still a good deal to sacrifice all but 'Super' Noodles (not so 'super') for their first flat. It seems still only the banks that are holding them back!



  • 12. Jon

    (23 September 2010, 01:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    What an excellent article.... I've been stating the last 6 years or so that the housing market, as previous comments have also stated, is grossly overvalued. One of my theories of Govt. wishing to keep the market from falling is that stamp duty would greatly reduce £ into the treasury.

    But wouldn't a more affordable housing market be a better solution than the govt. having to embark on a massive program of social housing building?

  • 13. Mike McAndrew

    (23 September 2010, 01:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    I was utterly flabbergasted when I ready Michael Coogan’s comments that the proportion of people who’s aspire to owning a house should have any baring what so ever on the tightness of credit criteria in housing finance market.

    This is from the director general of the CML!!!

    If the Met Police Chief said that cars should be allowed to travel at 120mph because people like going fast – he’d be forced to resign.

    Is this really that different? Maybe imagine that the Police Chief owned shares in Texaco…

  • 14. Steve

    (23 September 2010, 01:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    Alyson wrote: "sterling might weaken and BRICS companies will buy up the stock"

    Alyson, why would they buy into a falling market? This would be a very poor investment.



  • 15. Steve

    (23 September 2010, 02:14PM)  Complain about this comment

    Jon wrote: "One of my theories of Govt. wishing to keep the market from falling is that stamp duty would greatly reduce £ into the treasury."

    It's worse than that Jon. Gordon Brown's miracle economy was based on ever increased debt and spending. Hence Labour had a vested interest in keeping house prices (and hence mortgages) rising, contrary to their stated promise of preventing a house price boom.

  • 16. Keith

    (23 September 2010, 02:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting that all the comments so far have been from people who generally accept that house prices are over valued and will surely fall in value.

    Compare that with this time 6-18 months ago when any suggestion of big house price falls was met with a barrage of counter arguments from the 'houses only ever increase in value' brigade.

    This small sample here on Money Week perhaps indicates quite a change in the general consensus?

    The 'buy now - or you'll never buy' crowd, or the 'renting is for loosers' posse seem to have all but disappeared?

  • 17. bob

    (23 September 2010, 02:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    But will house prices fall and, if so, when?

    Asking prices are very stubborn in my part of the UK - a few K off here and there.

    Seems to me that sellers are still in denial. Only this morning half a dozen properties came on the market in my area at least 205 over-valued - how long before those sellers drop their asking price? Six months? A year? And probably only then by few K.

    Low IRs could keep this madness going for years.

  • 18. Henry

    (23 September 2010, 02:55PM)  Complain about this comment

    A question, if house prices do fall 40% or more, who in their right mind would sell if they didnt have to (unless they wanted to upgrade) - it comes down to the death, divorce or debt scenario.

    So all the poeple who are waiting for a crash, isnt it going to be a sellers market as there will be minimal houses for sale and many buyers who have waited for the drops in pricing.

    Also with the reduced number of properties for sale, doesnt that mean the desireable proerties are reduced leaving you with something you may not want to buy even though you have the money?

    im a FTB with not enough deposit BUT if the crash comes will it be a bit of a anti-climax?

  • 19. Sarah

    (23 September 2010, 03:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    If house prices fell 40% due to credit restriction then the banks would collapse due to defaults on the loans.

    I for one would file for bankruptcy in order to purchase a house to live in and one to rent out if prices came down that much.

    I can imagine most people would do the same.

    It is simply never going to happen.

  • 20. Keith

    (23 September 2010, 03:19PM)  Complain about this comment

    Henry, plenty of people still sell in a falling market and only a small proportion of these are forced sales.

    You seem to forget a basic mentality of people here. Once people cotton on to the fact that prices are really and properly on the slide many will try and sell quickly and in a panic to capitalise on any gains they may have made whilst they still can. Because after all 'if they don't sell now, then in six months time it might be worth £xxx less'.

    This by itself will result in further unsold stock and even more downward pressure. It's known in the trade as 'capitulation'. No market is immune to this.

    Once the fear generated by a few months of price falls takes hold then there's no saying what people will do, and as we all know, people are particularly irrational when it comes to house prices.

  • 21. Keith

    (23 September 2010, 03:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    Sarah, why would people default on their loans if the market dropped in value? The loan payment would still be the same and the total mortgage amount owed would not have changed?

    Anyway the banks won't collapse. That's why they are now insisting on 25-40% deposits - to guard against this risk. The government would step in again anyway if a bank got into trouble - it's not an option to let them fail.

    As for buying a house after you have been declared bankrupt. Do you actually know what bankruptcy involves? Your debts are not always wiped clean you know. In terms of buying another house (or two) then no lender would touch you with a long bargepole for many years after going bankrupt.

    I don't understand where you are coming from I'm afraid?

    Care to clarify how you see this working?

  • 22. Sarah

    (23 September 2010, 03:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    @Keith

    You are talking about 9 years of buyers in negative equity. How many of them do you think will sell at a 40% loss?

    The banks have only been taking 20% deposits for around a year and there have been vastly less transactions over that time. They have not guarded against any risk.

    Do you really think that every buyer over the last decade will sit by and pay a loan on an asset worth 40% less than they paid?

    They will transfer the loan into one persons name, sell up and default on the leftover payments.

    If you thought you had seen a banking collapse in 2007 and the impact on the country then just wait until the value of every asset the banks hold falls 40% in value. This country would become 3rd world over night.

  • 23. Sarah

    (23 September 2010, 03:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    @Keith

    You are talking about 9 years of buyers in negative equity. How many of them do you think will sell at a 40% loss?

    The banks have only been taking 20% deposits for around a year and there have been vastly less transactions over that time. They have not guarded against any risk.

    Do you really think that every buyer over the last decade will sit by and pay a loan on an asset worth 40% less than they paid?

    They will transfer the loan into one persons name, sell up and default on the leftover payments.

    If you thought you had seen a banking collapse in 2007 and the impact on the country then just wait until the value of every asset the banks hold falls 40% in value. This country would become 3rd world over night.

  • 24. Duncan

    (23 September 2010, 06:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    Neil wrote "however, it'll take a huge shift in public opinion to regard falling prices as a good thing."

    Personally I think what is needed is a bubble elsewhere.
    In the late nineties you you get a decent house for about
    £52K (I was trying to sell one, a 3 bed in Hampshire)
    because all the "Smart Money" was going into Technology
    Stocks

    Henry wrote "A question, if house prices do fall 40% or more, who in their right mind would sell if they didnt have to"

    Exactly. After ten years I eventually got my money back.

    Duncan Bought 1989 £65500. Best offer 1995 £48000. Sold 1999 £70500

  • 25. Keith

    (23 September 2010, 06:53PM)  Complain about this comment

    Sarah, utter rubbish I'm afraid.

    Plenty of people will still move homes despite their houses being worth say 40% less than they paid for it. The new home they move to will also be worth 40% less too - so where is the problem?

    Same with a car - you take out a loan to buy a new car and a year later it is worth 30% less than the loan that is paying for it. Most people don't seem to have a problem to continue to pay up.

    By the way - banks hold way more assets than just houses so falling house prices won't have quite the effect you think it will I'm afraid.

    Sarah you have to understand that the value of homes can go up as well as down. Just because maybe you didn't do your homework and perhaps paid over the odds for your home at the top of the market - you still borrowed the money. What gives you the right to default on your commitment and let the rest of us pick up the pieces?

  • 26. JAMES

    (23 September 2010, 07:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    Of course Jon is right about prices of houses, and so arecomments about the undesirability for governments to see a reduction in the prices - they keep the rest of the economy on the boil. But that's all been sorted - inflation is coming (not of housing - that will just sit where it is) but inflation of cpi etc products, followed by wages, and hey presto in a few short years the problem will resolve itself. It's THAT EASY. iT WILL HAPPEN, WATCH.
    ps BUY SOMETHING THAT'S AN INFLATION HEDGE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE SOMETHING.

  • 27. AdamB

    (23 September 2010, 07:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    Fantastic article John.

    The topic of housing prices in Britain can get quite emotional.

    On the one side of the emotional spectrum you have those who earn decent money but have been completely priced out of the market because they weren't lucky enough to be in it from around 2003 or earlier

    On the other side you have those who are leveraged up to the hilt as they added to their portfolios (or upsized) all the way up, and are now bricking themselves because a 10% drop in the market now will wipe them out.

    In the middle of the spectrum are those who are fairly complacent because they are happy with what they've got and now have a very manageable mortgage; Those people are probably not reading this article.

  • 28. AdamB

    (23 September 2010, 07:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    The government's only role with regard to housing finance is to provide a regulatory framework for lenders which engenders a long-term sustainable and transparent mortgage market.

    The Council of Mortgage Lenders is just looking for a free ride off the back of tax payer and should be ignored. Mortgage lenders themselves really need to go back to the nice and boring days of traditional mortgage lending. That means carrying out standard credit risk management and only lend to those that will pay them back. A home is not an ATM machine for shysters to make a quick buck.

    First time buyer schemes and the like are just bonkers. They artificially inflate the buy-side and are ultimately damaging to the housing market in the long run. They only serve the populist factions within government whose agenda is to buy votes at the next election. Say no to direct government intervention in the housing market, unless of course there is a greater social need to create new public housing.

  • 29. Roberto Birquet

    (23 September 2010, 08:06PM)  Complain about this comment

    So refreshing to see sober comments (odd exception such as Sarah - country would become 3rd world). But the comments of those such as Sarah prove that even recent history cannot teach some people, and that policymakers need to vigilant not just to busts, but the booms that create them. The banks balance sheets can suffer - because they have to. The whole nation and others are suffering from the uncontrolled drunken deregulation that allowed bankers to do what they did. I neither blame the government nor the bankers primarily, but the economics profession. I studied it for a year at university. I thought macro and micro 101 were to be basic theory which we would later critique. No, the lecturers actually believed all that simplistic nonsense.

    I do not always agree with John, but this is all pure good sense. I nearly said common sense, but recent times have proved that would be the wrong description.

  • 30. Dan1el

    (23 September 2010, 09:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    The Labour Party are directly responsible for inflating The Housing Market.

    Labour then transferred that debt onto everyone else in society.

    So our money is being stolen, through QE, Low IR, increased taxes, mortgate relief, to pay for this toxic mortgage debt, to bail out the banks. In effect, our money is being de-valued and stolen to pay for other peoples houses.

    Whilst keeping us in debt slavery.

    But this is not a 'socialist' act.

    The Labour party has implemented policies which support one section of a society, to the extreme detriment of another section of that society [via blatant theft and cronyism]

    The most notable characteristic of a FACIST ideology is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population.

    The preferred class lives in relative comfort, while the oppressed class lives in a Facist state.

  • 31. Peter

    (23 September 2010, 10:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Sarah: "...just wait until the value of every asset the banks hold falls 40% in value. This country would become 3rd world over night. "

    Japan's house prices peaked in 1991 and 18 years later still stood an average 60% below their peak. Japan a third-world country?

    Or look at the Nationwide figures. In April 1989 the average house price was ~£115k. In January 1996 the value was ~£72k, a drop of ~37%. I must have missed the UK becoming a third-world country after that. Did you notice it? Have you been to a third-world country recently?


  • 32. All for it

    (24 September 2010, 12:26AM)  Complain about this comment

    These restrictions would actually be a very clever move, as they would force the banks to give out higher quality loans, and indirectly would lower the risk premium charged to the borrowers. Which in turn means that the gov't could raise the bank rate without significantly impacting the actual mortgage rates (as the risk premium would shrink).

    Plus the rules would ensure that any further stimulus money doesn't just flow back into the housing sector.

    Go for it!

  • 33. Dan

    (24 September 2010, 08:15AM)  Complain about this comment

    When house prices lose 50% from their peak valuations, it would actually only be About 7-8% of the UK homeowning population who would go into neg equity. [The buyers over the last 8-9 years]
    Over half of homeowners own outright. And the vast majority of those people, would be able to continue to make payments on their mortgage. So the argument that the UK would become third world overnight is baloney. A 50% plus crash would kickstart the economy again, as millions of FTB would get onto the ladder.

  • 34. Henry

    (24 September 2010, 08:17AM)  Complain about this comment

    @ Keith,

    Yes i appreciate its not only forced sellers that are selling in current times, what im saying is that with things being in the situation they are I can only see four reasons to sell, debt, divorce, death and upgrade.

    someone mentioned that in 1989 house price ave were £115k and in 1996 ave £72k a 30something% drop.

    question is what were the number of houses on the market in the boom and what were the number of houses in the bust?

    If there were a million in the boom and 10,000 in the bust, will it actually be a sellers market and gazumping all over again?

  • 35. Keith

    (24 September 2010, 09:12AM)  Complain about this comment

    Henry - you could equally argue that why on earth would people sell in a boom, when prices are still rising? Why not hold on to that house a little bit longer because next year it could be worth £xxx more?

    It doesn't always work like that though I'm afraid. People but and sell at any point in the market for a whole variety of reasons. The reason that there is such low sales at the moment is that people can't get mortgages - simple as that.

    If you look at the amount of unsold stock on Estate Agents books at the moments, then it's huge. Read a report the other day that said unsold stock was at record levels. This certainly does not point towards it being a sellers market for any time soon.

  • 36. AndrewC

    (24 September 2010, 09:40AM)  Complain about this comment

    Nice try Terry, not very convincing though, house prices will fall. Maybe you should try another line of work rather than property speculation, stop trying to make money off other people's backs.

  • 37. Tom A

    (24 September 2010, 09:48AM)  Complain about this comment

    I would love to see a 40% drop in property as i enjoy investing in the market but as prices will fall to some degree sitting on my hands seems prudent.

    In an ideal world however if house prices fall by around 5% for a few years and inflation stays below 5% for a few years a 'soft landing for all could be the miracle we all need. Between the 2 house prices return to a more realistic level without the city / banks becoming alarmed. Many small businesses would still be able to borrow at least some cash from the banks to keep us all in a job which would stop the house prices falling too fast etc.

    If we have high un-employment ets resulting in property drops 40-50% who will have the cash to pay the rents reliably?

  • 38. Roberto Birquet

    (24 September 2010, 11:21AM)  Complain about this comment

    Dan1el: The Labour Party are directly responsible for inflating The Housing Market. socialist? then fascist (an ideology that sought the death of socialism), stopped foaming at the mouth yet?
    I'm normally a Labour supporter, but the Tory/Lib coalition government is an opportunity for more sensible government. New Labour was a prisoner of its past. It adopted privatisation and deregulation as part of a desperate act of mollifying its previous antagonists: the City, media, Daily Mail etc. Under Blair/Brown, it went to extreme lengths, and to my surprise even believed in it all, going yet further on deregulation.

    I certainly do not support everything the coalition does, but at least its not such a prisoner to the vested interests of the above. Booming house prices came from deregulated finance, and a mania from newspaper, and TV shows), creating what Cable has called the "spiv culture." And blame the economists too.

  • 39. Roberto Birquet

    (24 September 2010, 11:27AM)  Complain about this comment

    Tom A. In an ideal world however if house prices fall by around 5% for a few years and inflation stays below 5% for a few years a 'soft landing for all could be the miracle we all need.
    ----------
    I'd say faster, as things in general economy could get moving again without huge (private sector) debt. That could allow a bottom after say a 10% fall over the next year, then 6-8% in each of the following two. I am convinced the central bank and probably the government wants to stoke inflation above 2% (maybe as high as 5% a year). The house price fall will by a third from here to bring affordability back, but if inflation is 10% over the next 2-3 years, the nominal fall would only be 23%. That's my guess for three years' time.

  • 40. JohnLittle

    (24 September 2010, 01:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    John,

    I enjoy you input to suggestions for investment, but it would be nice if you, and many others, wouldn't copy the US habit of corrupting taking liberties with our language; expressions that are unnecessary and...wel... are just addingverbiage.

    "And why would they? Boom and bust is a very pleasant economic model, if you ['get to'] take the profits during the boom, and hand the taxpayer and, more explicitly, savers, the consequences during the bust. "

    It's like ["any time soon"], like a catch phrase that seems must be woven into everyone's presentations - 'soon' is sufficient.

    No offence meant, but it grates when everyone uses these imports from over the pond that add nothing to the meaning.

  • 41. MH

    (24 September 2010, 01:36PM)  Complain about this comment

    Banks would not be in trouble if house prices crashed.

    The money that banks lend is not real hard money but only figures on a computer. When they sell repossessed houses they lend out more fictional money, for said house, to the new buyer, but rake in as much REAL hard cash as poss from the repossessed as well as demanding the rest of their loan back. In fact they are getting back two mortgages for the price of one house.

    selling for cash, they receive real money for computer digits, against which they can lend out 10x more fictional money

    In the past it has served the elites' purpose to bring about boom and bust.

    Maybe this time the aim is not to crash and start again, but to make housing unavailable to the majority thus indeed creating a third world country.

    Is this why Brown said there would be no more boom and bust???

  • 42. Roger

    (24 September 2010, 05:31PM)  Complain about this comment

    FTBs need more than lower prices, they need protection from BTLers. And one way to enable this is to curtail the tax breaks that currently make investment, and for that matter primary, properties so viable and attractive. Subsidies are not the answer, because as with most subsidies, it is the seller who benefits. Hindsight is 20:20 but the South African government introduced bank regulation/ credit restrictions end of 2007 and thus pre empted a property bubble.
    Sadly, if the coalition fails to address this and other matters i see future generations as tenents and slaves to foreign interests.

  • 43. Dan1el

    (24 September 2010, 07:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    Roberto@38.

    Sorry I am not sure what your point is? Or is there a question? If so, please clarify, I would be happy to respond.
    [I voted Lib Dem for the first time at the last GE....]

    You do not seem to be disagreeing with me?

    As far as foaming at the mouth is concerned. Its not my decision to stop 'foaming at the mouth'

    I [we] have no choice.
    It only stops when the [economic] facism stops..............



  • 44. Roberto Birquet

    (24 September 2010, 08:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    Daniel
    I reacted to your causal use of the word socialist. And then linking it to fascism, which itself was a reaction against socialsim in the early 20th century. Nazi Germany murdered and imprisoned socialists even before the Jews. It is unecessary.
    New Labour's triangulation (looking to be something for everyone) was always I thought liable to becoming sth everyone dislikes. And just see newspaper blogs. Tories attack New Labour for being socialist and creating the financial mess; Labourites attack New Labour for embracing neoliberalism, deregulation etc which "caused the mess". Ironic, triangulation bites back. I still blame economists. Laissez-faire and deregulation became the end of history, and they were wrong, and frankly laissezfaire is a facile and idiotic belief. It certainly wasn't socialism.

  • 45. blimey

    (25 September 2010, 11:31AM)  Complain about this comment

    Agree with Jon
    Couple of points to consider:

    Reason for increased credit partly due to revision of 'Glass Steagall' act, 1999.
    Explosion of 'global wholesale credit ' = increase lending.
    Poor Bank regulation =Mortgage Fraud on wholesale level.
    Personal greed drove 'high risk' borrowing strategies(Inside Track). 'Buy-to-let' rents effectively underwritten by Benefit system.
    Goverment increase spending, circulating more cash.

  • 46. blimey

    (25 September 2010, 11:31AM)  Complain about this comment

    Agree with Jon
    Couple of points to consider:

    Reason for increased credit partly due to revision of 'Glass Steagall' act, 1999.
    Explosion of 'global wholesale credit ' = increase lending.
    Poor Bank regulation =Mortgage Fraud on wholesale level.
    Personal greed drove 'high risk' borrowing strategies(Inside Track). 'Buy-to-let' rents effectively underwritten by Benefit system.
    Goverment increase spending, circulating more cash.

  • 47. blimey

    (25 September 2010, 11:32AM)  Complain about this comment

    Now:
    Proposals to curb Banking/lending criteria & media speculation on economy to slow property invstmt appetite.
    Coalition Govt. proposal to limit Housing Benefit will have effect, push on Benefit Fraud will stop Beneficiaries rent paid by the system, eventually pushing rent incomes down(Decreasing overall/disposable income).
    HP crashes don't happen overnight, this one (On the cards since 2005) was postponed by profligate Govt. desperately trying to cling on to power.

    It's simply history repeating itself and if we don not learn the lessons of history...

  • 48. Ian

    (25 September 2010, 03:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    Stoking inflation is a dangerous game for the central banks to play.
    What do they think will happen to govt.(& other) bonds in this situation? And if we are still saddled with high debt, the consequences will be dire

  • 49. Patrick

    (25 September 2010, 05:50PM)  Complain about this comment

    I would resepctfully suggest everyone needs lower house prices. This obsession with rising house price creates a mirage of economic well-being and diverts resources towards non-productive use. Housing is infrastructure and we should protect it for our residents (note: any race, any colour but residents) not sell it off to oil magnates to be used for two weeks a year. I discuss these points further in my recent post @ http://posthumousblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/paper-houses.html

  • 50. Patrick

    (25 September 2010, 05:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    I would resepctfully suggest everyone needs lower house prices. This obsession with rising house price creates a mirage of economic well-being and diverts resources towards non-productive use. Housing is infrastructure and we should protect it for our residents (note: any race, any colour but residents) not sell it off to oil magnates to be used for two weeks a year. I discuss these points further in my recent post @ http://posthumousblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/paper-houses.html

    Feel free to comment.

  • 51. Niru

    (26 September 2010, 09:54AM)  Complain about this comment

    All investments should be bought based on the income they produce. Unfortunately, today's investors seem to see it as a way to quick riches, thus fuelling speculation in stocks, housing etc. This miseducation in financial management is responsible for all the economic problems we have seen. It is the corollary to the celebrity culture, where everyone wants to become a millionaire by 30 by riding some mass media trick (e.g. big brother). Or by winning the lottery. The gap between expectations and reality has never been higher. When we accept reality and get down to the hard grind again, things will improve.

  • 52. Liam D

    (26 September 2010, 09:06PM)  Complain about this comment

    @Sarah (23 September 2010, 03:17PM)

    "If house prices fell 40% due to credit restriction then the banks would collapse due to defaults on the loans. I for one would file for bankruptcy in order to purchase a house to live in and one to rent out if prices came down that much. "

    Sarah, if you went bankrupt you would loose your home, savings and any other assets. You would be unable to obtain a mortgage for several years.

    You cant just hand the keys to bank and walk away like in the US, in the UK the debt is attached to the borrower not the house. If prices crashed 50% most people would have little choice but to keep paying their mortgage.

  • 53. chris

    (27 September 2010, 12:00AM)  Complain about this comment

    Jon wrote: "One of my theories of Govt. wishing to keep the market from falling is that stamp duty would greatly reduce £ into the treasury."

    ------------

    Mortgage approvals are at their lowest for I don't know how long. So the £ into the treasury will be much reduced compared to the height of the boom, or a more normal housing market.

    With prices as they stand at the moment, would be sellers refusing to sell at prices that FTBs can afford. This does not benefit the treasury in terms of tax take from stamp duty. A more effective approach, in my opinion, would be to allow prices to correct according to the principles of supply and demand, but reduce the threshold for stamp duty accordingly.

    Markets have a knack of correcting themselves. The current stand-off can not last and a return to falling prices could well see the rate of change in house prices accelerate to crash speed before long as sellers recognise that the sooner they sell, the better.

  • 54. Property Match

    (07 October 2010, 12:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    Question: What would make it easier to get the mortgage you need to buy the house you really need?
    Answer: Lower house prices.

    The market has been over-cooked for a long time and with the global recession, the chickens have finally come home to roost.

    The whistle has been well and truly blown.
    No amount of re-engineering of mortgage products will fix this.

    Lets hope the FSA can.

  • 55. andrew

    (08 October 2010, 08:43AM)  Complain about this comment

    When the masses start saying houses will go down further, then thats probably the perfect time to buy.

    When masses said, "prices will never go down..." guess what happened.

    HOUSEHOLD income is around £60k yes £60k per household, therefore average houses should be around £180k.
    The reason houses are so expensive is EVERYONE wants to live in Central London, Central Manchester, Surrey, etc; whilst they are PLENTY of affordable houses right round the country.
    We cant always win..
    I will be astonished if house prices fall by a further 1% this year.

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