What will trigger the fall in house prices?

By MoneyWeek editor-in-chief Merryn Somerset Webb Jun 01, 2010

Merryn Somerset-Webb

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We've just bought a house. It is exactly the kind of house we have long wanted to live in, so we are thrilled. But I am also pretty sure that, while buying it might be a good thing for family stability, it will also be the worst financial decision we have ever made.

You don't need to know that the average house price is still well over five times the average income – or that the average first-time buyer was forced to put down a deposit of £50,000 in March, or even that more than 80% of adults under 30 are unable to afford to buy any kind of house in the UK, according to the National Housing Federation – to know that house prices are still in bubble territory. Instead, you just need to look in an estate agent's window. That usually does it.

That said, markets keep showing us that things can stay at the "wrong" price for years. So, saying that house prices are too high isn't necessarily the same as saying they are going to fall. For that, we need a trigger of some kind – such as the subprime crisis that kicked off collapse in the US and a mini shock in our own market.

It is always tricky to spot the trigger in advance, but there does seem to be an unusually dangerous number of contenders at the moment.

Might it be the funding gap? Mortgage approvals for house purchases are still exceptionally low, yet mortgage lenders are even now warning that they could get lower thanks to a £400bn funding gap currently being filled by the Bank of England support schemes introduced at the peak of the financial crisis. These schemes will soon end and the new government has made no mention of extending them. Perhaps it will. But if it doesn't, the past few years of mortgage drought might in retrospect look like something of a credit bonanza.

Might it be interest rates? The OECD has suggested that rates in the UK should move up to 3.5% by the end of next year to stamp out inflation. I don't think that is particularly likely – Mervyn King, the governor of the Bank of England, has made clear that he will keep rates low to support the Con-Lib coalition as it cuts spending.

But what if rates did rise? Right now, the average standard variable rate offered by most banks is about 4.5%. A 3% rise in rates (from the current 0.5%) would take that up to 7.5%. That wouldn't exactly push up demand.


Special FREE report from MoneyWeek magazine: When will house prices bottom out - and how will you know?

  • Why UK property prices are going to fall 50%
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But we don't necessarily need rising interest rates for mortgage rates to go up again. All we need is another interbank trust-leaching global crisis – like the one in Europe, perhaps. Note that Libor – the rate at which banks lend to each other and the rate from which many price their mortgages – has been creeping up again as risk aversion kicks in across the eurozone. The rise so far has been pretty modest relative to that seen during the Lehman Brothers collapse, but if panic sets in, it might not stay that way.

Other triggers might include falling real wages and an expected rise in unemployment as the government slashes its way through the public sector, and rising taxes do for more service businesses.

There is also a new entrant into the mix: the coming rise in capital gains tax. We don't know how high this will go, but most people with a second home or a buy-to-let investment are likely to face a much higher tax bill on their gains than they had expected. That means they are probably running the numbers on selling right now.

A house bought for £100,000 in 1985 would now be worth £490,600 on Nationwide numbers. Sell it today and you'll pay CGT of £68,500. Sell it at 40% and, assuming no inflation allowances, you'll pay £152,200. That suggests you should get out now – even if you can only do so at below what you think the market price should be. Sell the £490,600 house today for £450,000 and you'll still clear more post-tax than if you waited and sold at 40%. Even my mother is at it – her buy-to-let properties are joining the glut coming on to the market this week.

So, all in all, I'm not holding out much hope that our much-loved new townhouse will make our fortune.

However, if you insist on buying, there is one thing I would recommend: do as we did and use a good search agent. It strikes me as very odd indeed that people go into a market in which they are not expert and spend hundreds of thousands of pounds, even millions of pounds, without taking advice from someone with their interests at heart (i.e. not an estate agent). A search agent will know houses are coming on the market long before they hit primelocation.com.

Given that the property business is a magnet for charlatans, take recommendations on search agents where possible – we used Saint Property in Scotland.

Good agents will pay for themselves several times over. Ours did – which at least means we will lose less money on our purchase than we might have otherwise.

• This article was first published in the Financial Times

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  • 1. Alex

    (01 June 2010, 03:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    Congratulations on buying a home Merryn. It's not exactly a financial nirvanna, wait until the boiler packs up, or you peel back some wallpaper and find out that half the house needs replastering!

    Having said that the stability of knowing that you at least notionally own where you live ( assuming you have a mortgage ), and the abiliy to upgrade the fittings/bathroom/kitchen from the tat most landlords get from B& makes life alot more pleasant.

    Besides whether or not you make a capital gain, what you do know is that at some point in the future you will have paid off the mortgage and can retire with about 1/3 of your living costs gone, I can't imagine getting to 65 and having to pay rent to a landlord out of the pension.

    An ISA/pension is for investments and income, a house is where a family will make it's home. Most decisions aren't financial, if they were I'd be a single batchelor who lives in a tent and rides a bicycle. Life is however about more than money.

  • 2. vs-trader.blogspot.com

    (01 June 2010, 03:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    I share the view that one should if possible try to own one's own place (and make it mortgage free as soon as possible). I do not think investing in property is a good idea in current climate and I am sure there are better alternatives available BUT having your own place to live can give you comfort and security. Certainly not worrying about paying rent to someone out of pension.

    BTW, I wish money week can tweak the comments system so that any followup comments can be subscribed. Otherwise you come to a page, leave and comment and move on. Unless you actively book mark the pages, you never know what further comments were left on a page and soon it all disappears in oblivion.

    Many blog systems allow comment subscription (blogspot/facebook etc). I am sure it is not a difficult thing to achieve.

  • 3. Matthew

    (02 June 2010, 11:50AM)  Complain about this comment


    I wish that all these proclamations of falling house prices would come true. Partly because of them I have delayed the purchase of a house, only to see prices forever ascending! When, if ever, are house prices going to fall in the Midlands

  • 4. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 12:00PM)  Complain about this comment

    I agree with the last guy, fix the system so we can keep a track of the comments others leave.

    A friend of mine at the low of the market back in 2001 bought a house on her credit card, crazy I know, but call it luck or what ever, that was an amazing feat, she now owns 3 homes, two business premesis and has just been looking at a 6 bed home in the country. I know I am jelous, but no matter how much we complain about prices, unless you either talk with your feet (eg do not buy, and refuse to pay high rents) or we have to put up with it, its the likes of my friend which take the risks that deserve the rewards.

  • 5. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 12:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    p.s I can not afford a house :(

  • 6. Mark Cooper

    (02 June 2010, 12:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    I have been following your advice and informing others of further doom for the property for years and I am not stopping now! I don't believe we will have to wait until interest rates rise,(possibly tomorrow!) before you loose the most money I suspect you have lost in a life time thus far! Keep up the good work. One thing you missed in the article, commercial property could crash with possible contagion?

  • 7. Buyer123

    (02 June 2010, 12:09PM)  Complain about this comment

    I have been renting since selling in 2007 and the buy to let properties with mean kitchens and plastic wood floors are vastly overpriced and nasty, in unsafe neighbourhoods and I think children-now thirty-are better off renting.
    Wait six months and buy something in the PIGS with a trashed euro to get a bit of holiday sun, kids.

  • 8. CGT Red Herring

    (02 June 2010, 12:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    Why would a BTL property be twice the national house price average? I would say more like half the national average.

    Most properties will be in joint names. So peak price £100K and the majority bought in the last 6 years will have no gain.

    £100K peak price is now around £80K (if you can find a buyer).

    Assume 100% profit, so bought at £40K and sell for £80K. Today CGT for a couple selling a single BTL is £3.6K.
    With an average tax rate of say 30% across all landlords new tax (assuming no reliefs given) is £6K.

    Based on a modest tax saving of £2.4K most investors will hold on to their properties for the market to recover. You are mistaken if you believe there will be a significant sell off in the BTL sector.

  • 9. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 12:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    Buyer123, I like the idea, have you seen the crazy prices in Spain! Mad mad mad, I was in Brazil a few years ago, and they wanted £120,000 for a house with no windows and doors etc, all it was was a brick shell. It made me realise how cheap the UK is well at least the quality of homes here.

    The best option I saw in Brazil was in Forteliza, £30,000 for an hotel appartment. Swimming pool, free gas, free daily cleaning service, HOWEVER you have to pay for a service charge at £600 per month. Hurm, not quite as simple as I first thought.

    If you have any tips for buying in the PIIGS please let me know :)

  • 10. billthebadger

    (02 June 2010, 12:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    don't worry about buying property, it's the only thing that will hold it's value when inflation really takes off, soon!
    Gold's OK, but everyone else will be just nicking yours and what good is it when all else is collapsing all about us?
    It's going to go you know.
    That's why I live here in West Wales now.
    "When all else fails, try Wales......"
    in the words of one of those '60's poets.

  • 11. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 12:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi Matthew,

    It is exactly for ppl like u that Mr frisby had written the article abt house prices falling 70% in real money (gold)!!!! and he got some stick for it!!!!!

    Matthew, the house prices may not fall in notional value for sometime to come ( or may be they may!!!) but what is sure is u r money in u r bank acc ( i presume u atleast have u r deposit money set aside) is not going to grow much with the near 0 interest rates offered by banks.

    This is where Mr Frisbys advice of buying gold (even better silver!) comes into picture....his charts show that the house price Vs gold ratio is at 200 headed downwards........so if u buy gold/silver... for u the house prices will be steady ( or drop!!!)... as and when u get to u r dream house... liquidate u r bullion and buy a house

    Mr Frisbys advice was very sound and easy to understand. Not sure why so many ppl had such nasty things to say abt the article.

    Avid financial reader/analyst,
    Rishi

  • 12. CGT Red Herring

    (02 June 2010, 12:39PM)  Complain about this comment

    Rishi and Matthew,

    Unfortunately gold will not cover the gearing available in the property market.

    So Matthew may have the 10% deposit protected by gold but what about the 90%?

    Matthew if you have the deposit, forget the gold. Offer 70% of current market value on a few dozen properties and buy now. It is a buyers market! Nobody will give you gold at 70% of market value.

    'Gurus' have been PROMISING a crash since 2002, 8 years on they were wrong.

  • 13. billthebadger

    (02 June 2010, 12:40PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bob the builder buying in PIGS, forget it. Swimming Pools? Portugal in 2006, that heatwave, when all the eucalyptus forests were set ablaze, the young Israeli helicoptor pilots brought in to fight the fires bucketed up water from all the english swimming pools..... everywhere, thank goodness.
    But the property market crashed and we only managed to sell our beautifully rebuilt old convent building, now a burned out ruin, for barely 15% of what we'd paid out on it.
    Tough. You learn, but we had a wonderful 8 years doing it.
    So no loss really.

  • 14. Stew

    (02 June 2010, 12:49PM)  Complain about this comment

    I'm with you Matthew. I have read about the impending house price crash for a while now - and, as such, delayed buying. Is it really ever going to happen?

  • 15. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 12:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    @CGT Red Herring

    Haven’t u read Mr Frisbys article?
    u r statement 'So Matthew may have the 10% deposit protected by gold but what about the 90%?' only exemplifies u r ignorance!. the price of gold is risin at a much higher rate than the price of house prices (please refer to the houseprice Vs gold chart!) the ratio is currently at 200. The historical mean is abt 70 points down at abt 125-130! Mr Frisbys analysis seems to suggest 100 is possible (german prof says 50 is possible!)

    ''Gurus' have been PROMISING a crash since 2002, 8 years on they were wrong.' did u even read Mr Frisbys article? House prices are back to 1994s prices, in terms of gold! And still falling, in terms of gold!!!!! So how is buying gold not a good idea to hedge u r deposit? Not sure where the arbitrary 10% protection comes into picture? The charts seems to suggest a further 100% correction (if not more) in terms of gold
    Rishi

  • 16. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 01:05PM)  Complain about this comment

    As long as people follow the herd house prices will keep rising, I for one can see many 30 and even 40 year olds stuck at their parents homes in the future as the ability to raise the 15% (25k+/-) as a deposit is almost impossible for most.

    Actually there's where we already are! unless you was lucky enough to have left uni and got a good job and committed early to buying a house at least 2/3 years before the crash. The 23+ are a generation of kidults.

  • 17. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 01:08PM)  Complain about this comment

    Question for you all:
    If houses are down "70 %" as quoted, do you not think that if a correction does come, houses should shoot up 70%!

  • 18. CGT Red Herring

    (02 June 2010, 01:19PM)  Complain about this comment

    Rishi,

    To buy £150,000 worth of gold you need £150,000. To buy a £150,000 house you need just £15,000! The mortgage cost is no more than the cost of renting had you spent all your money on gold.

    Think about it.

    LR confirms 7% house price RISE to March 2010 (13% in London). So gold has to increase 70% for every 7% rise in property prices to give the same ROI.

  • 19. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 01:24PM)  Complain about this comment

    @Bob the builder

    Gosh .............!!! where were u when the markets (actually everything! except commodities) tanked 100% only to further tank another 100% and another 100% and another....... until we reached bottom at end of 2008-beginning of 2009?????

    only bcos somethin has tanked 70% does not mean it will rise by 70%!!!! if that were true every tom dick and harry wud start trading and make millions!!!! try and understand the fundamentals of why gold is rising..... to start to understand why house prices (and practically every other indicator... FTSE100 etc) are falling in terms of gold!!!!

    let me give u a head-start.... its the QE ! and the historically low interest rates !!!!

  • 20. Rumpole

    (02 June 2010, 01:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    As a property lawyer I have one sure way of gauging where the market is heading. At the height of the property boom specialist property lawyers were being head hunted with offers of riches beyond wildest dreams (poetic licence !) . Now conveyancing jobs are harder to find than a Norewegian Blue in full mating plumage. This has been the case for the last two years and likely to remain so fot the next two years. I foresaw the crash ( but not the severity) and took a nice in - house safe job well beforehand.

  • 21. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 01:31PM)  Complain about this comment

    @CGT Red Herring

    lolz....... yes i know i have to spend £150k to buy a house and £150k to buy gold (worth 150k). so now here's what Mr Frisby thought ppl wud understand (but apparently they dont!!!)

    house prices are rising by abt 2-5% yr on yr in notional terms (ie in £££) ........ gold on the other hand is rising at 25-40% yr- on yr in notional terms (ie in £££).... do the maths!!!!

    in 2-3 yrs time.... even if the house prices go up (i highly doubt that and most money week writers will agree with me!) gold is going up faster......... so if u hold u r bullion for 2 yrs and then liquidate it to buy a house at higher price........ u still are left with abt 20% of £150k.

    I think Mr Frisby had to really explain his article a bit further using easy numbers that everyone understands instead of just using the house price to gold chart...... i think he overestimated some readers!

    Rishi

  • 22. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 01:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    i am an avid money week reader..... so i mite be a bit biased.... but i tell u try and understand and follow their advice....... they said mid last yr we sud stay away from properties...... i did that...... then in dec 09 they said buy bullion ..... i did that....... early last yr they said i sud look abroad..... in non ££ markets to reap the benefits.... forget the profits from my investments..... £££ has lost abt 30% of its value against emerging markets...... which means in £££ terms all my investments are 30% up + the dividends and profits from rising markets......thats a tidy profit in itself !!!

    so in the last 2 yrs ..... i know exactly whos advice to follow :)

    Rishi

  • 23. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 01:44PM)  Complain about this comment

    @rishi: I was in Brazil for that time :) I did see what was happening on the news though.

    @ rishi again: Money week has a good nack of predicting the future, now wish it would get a real future price right on housing though as I want some :)

    It is funny though because there have been two houses side by side, up for sale for over two years now. I think that says it all really.

    It would be a buyers market, if only we could borrow 6 times our wages again :)

  • 24. CGT Red Herring

    (02 June 2010, 01:49PM)  Complain about this comment

    Rishi,

    Simple maths for you as you are struggling :-)

    Latest LR figures are now available for April, 8.5% anuual rise.

    Money Week investor bought a house for £100,000 1st May 2009, paid £10,000 deposit, sold it for £108,500 31st April 2010. Profit £8,500.

    Versus

    Gold, bought £10,000 May 2009 now worth approx £13,000, just £3,000 profit but MUCH more volatility in gold prices to contend with.

    Property 85% ROI and Gold 30%, so property outperformed gold by almost 3:1 over the last year (and this was in a period when gold had a 'good' run).

    Property bears always fail to mention gearing.

    Hope this helps you.

  • 25. Becquerel235

    (02 June 2010, 01:53PM)  Complain about this comment

    Merryn,

    I'm with you. I just sold my bullion assets to put a 20% deposit on a house. I'm confident gold will keep rising, I reckon house prices will fall further (pending on how much money the BOE prints) and i'm pretty sure i could make more money investing in junior minors at the end of the current market dip.... But i'm sick of paying money to my landlord, and i hope my new house will provide a base to raise a family and give me a security and quality of life i can't acheive in rented accomodation.

    I could come up with some argument about discounting the price of renting. But, at the end of the day happiness is what realy matters.

    I hope it works out well for us!

  • 26. JAW

    (02 June 2010, 02:03PM)  Complain about this comment

    What will trigger the fall in house prices? Probably some new financial collapse and subsequent panic originating in the US? World and European markets tend to slavishly mimic Wall Street, and there is the contagion effect. So, what financial pitfalls loom on the US horizon? Mega commercial property defaults leading to collapsing prices and banks going bust, various US State bankruptcies, exponentially increasing Federal deficit, Federal bond purchase strike spreading to Europe, Chinese withdrawal from the US bond market, the slow realization that there is no genuine recovery in the US economy, just stagflation, Obama health programs taking the US towards bankruptcy, the multi trillion $ US wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan... yes, there are plenty of fingers nervously poised on the trigger and the shrapnel will quickly shred UK and European house prices. Merryn's house may look OK in 2010 but expensive in 2011.

  • 27. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 02:14PM)  Complain about this comment

    @CGT Red Herring: 8500 profit... now factor into that the purchase fees, sales fees, capital gains, mortgage interest, mortgage arangement fees, estate agent fees ... need we say more?

    I think your both right in a way, it happends to depend when you buy, and when you sell irespective of the asset, although housing looses out to gold here in my opinion. If you can buy a 100k house with 10k deposit, you can also leverage your gold exposure if you so wish through an ETF, futures etc.

  • 28. Watcher

    (02 June 2010, 02:19PM)  Complain about this comment

    Congratulations on the house. I agree with all your comments yet I disagree with your assertion that house prices will fall. The reason is that the authorities are desperate to prevent a housing crash, even if that means debasing the currency.
    I think that high house prices are a transfer of wealth from the younger generation to the older generation and the authorities are complicit in this. I think this might be due to vested interests and the idea that keeping the newer generation in debt will make them easier to control.
    I do wonder if they can genuinely rig a market though, they have been doing so for the last few years and short of printing money again I think they will struggle to do so but they have come up with the tricks on a number of times and would not bet against them doing so again.

  • 29. chris

    (02 June 2010, 02:21PM)  Complain about this comment

    Perhaps there won't be another trigger, or if so, it won't change the fundamental situation dramatically. It's quite likely the prices will keep on sliding for years, at least in real terms. And if someone can't afford a mere 15-20% deposit he should not be making the move, this is just common sense / prudence.

  • 30. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 02:24PM)  Complain about this comment

    @CGT Red Herring,

    so now we are we are pickin on time frames that suit us to prove our point?
    how abt the same maths over last 2 yrs..... or 3 or 4 or 5? the house price vs gold chart holds true from 1994! (actually form 1960s!)

    ter is always some thin outperforming other over a conveniently placed time frame......! wat matters is wen u can spot a trend that wil stand the test of time.

    as i had pointed out in one of my previous responses.... buying low and selling high sounds easy....... but if everyone cud do it...... we wud all be millionaires

    plus what u failed to mention is the cost of maintaining a property! and i wont even get started on insurance!


  • 31. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 02:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    n how many ppl do u know who r in the business of flippin properties in a yr or less as investment??? its much easier to buy gold/silver ETF and sell it! no maintenance costs and def no insurance! n the value in international market is stable so free from ££ 's ups and downs! cant say the same abt house as investment!

  • 32. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 02:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ chris: Are you serious about the not being able to afford the deposit?

    Average deposit = +/- 2/3 years the average net wage of which the average Joe still has to afford to live SOMEWHERE and pay their bills so short of houses going down or back come 100% mortgages or at least 95% I can see the market going stagnant.

  • 33. RobertW.

    (02 June 2010, 03:17PM)  Complain about this comment

    Merryn has some really valid points and her background as a stockbroker working for big firms around the world shines through in all her reports. I particularly enjoyed the study she helped to compile last year which showed that if the deposit most folk put down, added to maint, repairs and insurance were invested in the stock market with dividends reinvested, for 20 yrs or so, then the opportunity cost is such that owning your own home actually costs you big time. It was a really good comparison as both forms of 'investment' are locking funds up for the long term.
    I would also like to add that it is the opportunity cost which is the main driver in over 90% of national and multi-national and plc companies choosing not to own the properties in which they trade, being instead advised by their financially astute and expensive city accountants to pay rent, this being a more viable option for them

  • 34. RobertW.

    (02 June 2010, 03:22PM)  Complain about this comment

    I would also like to add that in Merryn's study of last year and the study by Capital Economics about 8 years ago, which had similar results, both took into account rent payments over the long term.

  • 35. Yiam Cross

    (02 June 2010, 03:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    I've been convinced house prices in the UK will crash for years now but I'm changing my mind. I think the only thing that could drive down prices in the UK is a bio-disaster which rapidly reduces the population of the country by about 50-75%, though it might need something more serioius such as a virus which leaves a mass of zombies in it's wake.

    The British will ignore a lot when it comes to house prices but zombies in the neighbourhood would most likely depress prices somewhat. Though obviously not in the better parts of London where they can afford the kind of security which would exclude even the most determined zombie.

  • 36. laehc

    (02 June 2010, 03:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    Some comments mentioned a 70% drop followed by a 70% rise. Just thought I'd mention that is not a recovery.
    (1-0.7) x (1.7) = 0.3 x 1.7 = 0.51
    which is a 49% drop.

  • 37. Toby

    (02 June 2010, 03:57PM)  Complain about this comment

    - house price compared to the rent is important, not income
    - house requires constant expenses and will not last forever
    - most houses are old and need to be knocked down soon - or refurbished completely
    - the UK housing standards will increase...houses need to have energy level A+ or ++ but usually have C or D ratings...and have no chance to improve even with spending a lot on refurbishing it.
    - energy prices rise - so monthly expenses for heating and electricity will influence the sales price for a house...which will make a pressure on house prices and people don't want to live in old houses or even new houses that don’t meet the standards.
    - the "housing ladder".. forget it. Making money on houses will never work in the very long-term. if you want to make money, you need to work.

  • 38. Insider007

    (02 June 2010, 04:06PM)  Complain about this comment

    I'm truly saddened by your decision Merryn. I've used your words many a time over the past 5 years to back up my own decision to stay rented for now and keep my partner off my case.

    My analysis of the UK resi prop market is in tune with yours and shows it as being horribly overpriced. As we know it started to turn in 2005 but then was propped up by more cheap money.

    But as Jeremy Grantham explained in his bubble interview on the FT recently all bubbles burst eventually and there is only the UK and Australian property bubbles left to burst now.

    Surely you could have waited for the big bang ?

    Enjoy your decorating.

  • 39. Alex

    (02 June 2010, 04:32PM)  Complain about this comment

    laehc very valid comment there, most people ( journalists included ) don't really understand the asymetrical nature of % changes.

    A 40% fall followed by a 67% rise gets you exactly back to where you started, which is precisely what many shares have done in the past year.

  • 40. eyerobin

    (02 June 2010, 04:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    CGT Red Herring

    The problem is even I bid 10% over the valuation, and I still can't get the property. Now the solicitor's suggestion is offer 10%- 15% over the valuation. BTW, I'm living in Aberdeen. The only thing I can say is because of inflation

  • 41. rishi

    (02 June 2010, 04:40PM)  Complain about this comment

    http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/precious-metals-and-gems/buy-gold-not-houses.aspx

    just came across this article by Mr Frisby from 2007!!! its a must read to understand the importance of his advice today!

  • 42. Insider007

    (02 June 2010, 04:53PM)  Complain about this comment

    @ CGT red herring.
    Your argument is spurious. Saying that a geared property investment makes it better than Gold. It's chalk and cheese

    7% deposit means approx 14 x gearing as you say which if prices fall by just 7% will wipe out your equity.

    But think about what will happen if prices fall by 4 times this amount which they very well could do given current price to earnings ratios. Your 7% deposit turns into a 21% debt. I.e you've just lost 4 times your deposit - and i've ignored the cost of buying and selling.

    I'll stick to non geared gold thanks. And some Silver too. I can't this stuff falling to zero value or less can you ?

    Also keep plenty of cash handy as this geared investment play will come again after the fall.

  • 43. Bob the builder

    (02 June 2010, 04:56PM)  Complain about this comment

    Ok, I know the ratio of down 70% up 70% was not correct, I was however simply trying to illustrate my point that a rise of around the same value is going to seriously inflate the prices of houses :)

  • 44. Mike

    (02 June 2010, 05:12PM)  Complain about this comment

    Is MSW the last bear getting sucked in. Is that a top signal.

  • 45. Dawn Bird

    (02 June 2010, 08:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    To Bob th e Builder. You might be right, ie those that take the risks in the casino that is the British Property Market deserve the reward. However lets hope that when the casino turns against them and they lose their money they don't come snivelling and whingeing to the tax payer for a bail out claiming that they were misled.

  • 46. Roger the Lodger

    (02 June 2010, 08:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    Congratulations. A home is what you buy to live in. So long as it is an affordable purchase it dosn't really matter if purchased at a market high.
    BTL is an investment and the Sage of Omaha says the test is - will the investment be profitable if purchased 100% with debt. His definition of profit is a positive value for net annual income after all expenses. The potential for capital gain is a bonus. Most BTLs will not pass this income test, but as long as landlords ignore this there will be no collapse in the price of rental properties and thus the property market as a whole will probably continue to rise.
    Interesting is that we, with an estimated remaining life span of 24 years, ( if lucky) have dis-invested from property and now rent.
    Equity investments of less than 100K provide us with enough income to pay the rent. To purchase our rental property would cost us close to 200K.


  • 47. CharlieTheChimp

    (02 June 2010, 08:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    I'm with BobtheBuilder, prices are going to keep rising forever. It's not a bubble, but why should it ever burst. This one is different.

  • 48. CharlieTheChimp

    (02 June 2010, 08:56PM)  Complain about this comment

    Ooops. I mean't it IS a bubble, but why should it ever burst...

  • 49. ALI

    (02 June 2010, 09:25PM)  Complain about this comment

    why would you buy a house if you are deffinetly sure that prices will fall??i think this marc 2009 was the bottom of the market and house prices will NOT fall until anoither recession.

  • 50. CharlieTheChimp

    (02 June 2010, 09:27PM)  Complain about this comment

    Want to know when house prices are going to take a dive? It'll be exactly after we finally lose patience waiting for 'normal' house prices to return and we have finally forked out 6x my salary for a below average house. Guaranteed.

  • 51. Iain

    (02 June 2010, 10:02PM)  Complain about this comment

    I too am deeply saddened by your decision, Merryn, to suddenly abandon all the people who took your advice over the last four or five years and kept out of property. It really is a sad betrayal because you are not being entirely honest. You clearly believe that what you have been saying on this subject over the years was plain wrong but are not prepared to admit it. You kept insisting, in the face of the endless boom in property prices, that the bubble would burst.. Not that it might burst, but that it had to. You owe it to your readers at least to try to explain why you were wrong and try to make amends. You might be surprised to learn just how many people who followed your advice and stayed out of the market can no longer afford a property and will be condemned to renting probably for the rest of their lives. I am deeply disappointed in you.

  • 52. Jack Daniel's

    (02 June 2010, 11:58PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bob the Builder,

    Get a house of your own? Can you do it? Yes you can!

    http://www.buildstore.co.uk/mykindofhome/events/eco-workshops-june-2010.html

  • 53. Bob the builder

    (03 June 2010, 08:49AM)  Complain about this comment

    I could not self build to save my life :)

    I just thought it a funny name, I am not a builder, simply a tesco cash till operator.

    I can not even afford a shed let alone a house, sigh not that I am bitter. Kidult life ahead for me :)

  • 54. Lord Edgehill

    (03 June 2010, 01:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    No offence intended, but I rather feel that certain sentiments expressed herein verge on the intemperate. Posters may, on mature reflection, admit that it's a big leap from speculative writing about the direction of house prices to 'betrayal' of a devotee.

    Everyone's personal situation is their own and MSW is entirely at liberty to ignore her own predictions if her circumstances so demand. To demand an apology of a pundit suggests an unhealthy emotional closeness to the issue. With all due respect to the frankly glorious Ms Somerset Webb, she is simply an 'input'. She is not The Nazarene, nor, IIRC, has she ever claimed to be.

    Let calm prevail. Selah.

  • 55. Sven

    (03 June 2010, 01:37PM)  Complain about this comment

    House prices are self regulating on an upward only long term basis. Most home owners (at the medium to high end) are not financially overstretched, having large equity or no mortgage. They sit on the sidelines and wait for prices to rise to a level where it is worth selling. Low first time buyer affordability forces people into the rental market which increases demand for buy to let property (in prime locations) propping prices up. Once the first time buyers re-enter the market demand will increase, again supporting prices. It is more about supply and demand than affordability.

    Prices will only drop if people are forced to sell, affecting the lower end of the market in non prime locations. The supply side shows no sign of easing with no new product availability in prime locations. Where property has crashed it had been primarily due to oversupply, this cannot happen in high demand areas of the UK.

    Location, Location, Location applies more than ever.

  • 56. Insider007

    (03 June 2010, 03:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    I don't buy this hopeful chat. In 2008 prices fell 20%+ In 2009 they bounced c 5% thanks to silly low interest rates. The price / earnings ratio remains ABOVE levels seen at the top of the 1980s boom, suggesting the crash is only part way through. John Varley, CEO of Barclays warned (8th Dec 2009) that Britain is halfway through the housing slump. This ties in with my estimate that house prices need to fall by around 30% or more to get that ratio of prices to earnings back to normal. With the private sector in turmoil, public expenditure about to be slashed doubtless attended by strikes on all fronts then getting back to normal is likely to be extremely painful for millions of households. There is another way of getting back to normal which is for earnings to rise a lot. Is that going to happen in the near future ?? No though we're likely to have a lot of inflation to increase our cost of living and at some point that means more normal interest rates. Then what ?

  • 57. Dikko

    (03 June 2010, 03:47PM)  Complain about this comment

    MSW has just called the bottom of the property market. Time to pile in!

  • 58. John

    (03 June 2010, 04:11PM)  Complain about this comment

    Research by M&Gs Bond Vigilantes suggests that, historically, interest rates rise 8 months after peak unemployment, which in turn comes 6 quarters after GDP turns positive. GDP turned positive in Q4 2009, which suggest unemployment peaking in Q2 2011 and base rate rises from late 2011/early 2012.

    http://www.bondvigilantes.co.uk/blog/2010/05/17/1274081400000.html

  • 59. Marty

    (04 June 2010, 04:01PM)  Complain about this comment

    Just want to defend Merryn here: if the dream home came on the market at a reasonable (affordable within personal boundaries set) price and you can cope with the loss in equity then she is right to buy, because the time is right for Merryn and her family knowing that the house is perfect. Risking loosing the perfect house for a 10% drop and might never re-appear (for sale) again is too great. Because rarely in life do you ever get a second chance to own the dream home. The time for Merryn and her family, in life, was right.

    Can someone tell me something, why is it in the governments best interests to keep property prices high? Everyone born in the country needs a house but why rope them into so much dept in the first place? Such a non-productive industry such as property speculation needs to be sapped (CGT of 50+% would be a start)

  • 60. Noah

    (07 June 2010, 12:09PM)  Complain about this comment

    Hi Marty, the reason govt wants to keep property prices high is
    1) banks need a steady reliable housing market to make a profit out of mortgages. Banks dont want mortgage customers getting into negative equity when house prices fall. As this is a risk factor banks would like to avoid. Therefore house prices falling is a financial risk for banks. Threrfore govt will do all they can to protect banks from this risk. therefore house prices will be artificially held high for many years to come, until banks return to strength. I hope i am wrong as i am a ftb waiting to buy. but i fear prices are being held high by govt intervention.

  • 61. Ian

    (07 June 2010, 07:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    I reckon the removal of the SLS funds from Lloyds et al will be a pivotal point in the UK housing market. There is £400 billion (seems a small number know doesn't it, but that's £6.6K for every man, woman and child in the country) of funds needing to be re-financed, at the same time as every other financial entity on the planet is trying to pay down debt and reduce exposure.
    The two possible responses of the BoE are:
    1.Do nothing and let interest rates find their own level (ie rise rapidly).
    2. Print more money and let the pound crash.

    Given their track record of bailing out the reckless, 2 looks more likely, although Mr. King is adament this will not happen. If you position yourself to take advantage of both of these outcomes, then you can't go wrong.

  • 62. IJ

    (08 June 2010, 11:04AM)  Complain about this comment

    In response to Ian, I'm starting to think 1) may be more likely, or at least something closer to 1). I didn't think this before, but I've changed my mind, for two reasons: 1) The austerity drive by the government, 2) the realisation that savers are in the majority and effectively in revolt against QE, funny money, welfare for the rich, etc. People are all too aware of the dire state of public finances, and would rather take some pain now - and if that means a double-dip so be it - than see their savings evaporate and much more pain later. In other words, the government and the majority are closely aligned, but the government will pay a big price for not having come clean earlier. I may well be wrong, but if not the outlook for house prices can't be great.

  • 63. Beta adjusted

    (09 June 2010, 12:44AM)  Complain about this comment

    Congrats Merryn! and as you believe its a poor investment you can always partially hedge the downside with a spreadbet at IG index as per the MW article the other day ;). I'm still sticking with long $, short S&P, long gold/silver/platinum, short Euro strategy which is working well at the moment but of course if the worst happens who knows what all the bits of paper will be worth. I try not to get too fussed about everything, after all, we only live once! the true terminal value is zero whatever you do! (unless perhaps you are of a religious persuasion)

  • 64. Elvis Presley

    (09 June 2010, 02:21PM)  Complain about this comment

    The real test of MSW's impartiality will be whether she now becomes a housing bull! This whole debate hangs on whether you own a house(s) or don't; standard partisanship.

  • 65. Beta adjusted

    (10 June 2010, 11:03AM)  Complain about this comment

    not really. People are entitled to change their minds. I can't see any new evidence to prompt that, all the original bear arguments seem valid

  • 66. Daz

    (01 July 2010, 10:28AM)  Complain about this comment

    Should the HOME you live in be classed as an investment?

    IMO this is what is wrong with the UK property market. If you buy the house of your dreams to live in for the long term - does it matter if it drops in the short term?

    You shouldnt value a HOME on purely financial grounds.

  • 67. Gaz

    (01 July 2010, 11:24AM)  Complain about this comment

    We're just about to get back in and yes we just want a HOME too. I am using my spare cash on an offset mortage to keep my options open for the future, keep the repayments low and negate any interest rate rises that are coming. All in all we are going to being paying less than 50% of the current rent for a similar property.

    I fully expect prices to go South soon by about 10-15% but we're in it for the long term and with current inflation and volatility of the markets it will level out again in 5 or so years anyway once the storm has passed.

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