What the price of gold reveals about UK house prices

By Dominic Frisby Dec 08, 2010

Dominic Frisby

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What's the most controversial topic we've ever tackled? You'd think it might be something about exploiting rising food prices. Or bankers' bonuses. Or even vice stocks.

I doubt any of you would have guessed: "the ratio of gold and silver to house prices". Yet that is the subject that holds the record for reader comments – by a long chalk.

And today I'd like to update you on that topic.

The best way to measure house prices

Let's kick off with a stat that I find amazing. Did you know that if you had sold your average British house in late 2004 and bought silver – just regular bars of silver – you could now sell that silver and buy 5.5 average British houses?

As we all know, money seems to buy you less and less each year – the above statistic really brings this home. This is because we operate under a system of 'fiat' (from the Latin, 'let it be done') money and credit. Churchill described it as money 'by government edict'. In other words, it is the law that what we use as money be money. Without that legal backing, modern money would be just a meaningless computer digit or piece of paper.

The problem is that, for all the 'bond vigilantes', and for all the regulation and whatever other means there are of imposing discipline, governments and central banks, however well intentioned, find ways of debasing the currency. There are so many ways of doing so, from deficit spending and inflation to artificially compressed interest rates to quantitative easing. It's just too tempting, as it's usually the easiest way out of a bind.

So I prefer to look at investment markets – whether it's the Dow Jones index, the oil price, or the UK housing market – valued in terms of a store of wealth that governments can't debase so easily. That store for me, is gold and silver. And given that more than a few people have moved their wealth out of real estate and into precious metals, the comparison between the two is, in my view, an extremely important ratio.

First, to put things into perspective, here is a long-term chart of UK house prices in pounds sterling. It is an apparently-never-ending upward slope. It's why the attitude that 'you can't go wrong with bricks and mortar' is embedded in our psyche. (Really, of course, this is just a manifestation of the never-ending decline in the purchasing power of sterling).

Average UK house price

My sincere thanks go to Tom Fischer, professor of financial mathematics at the University of Wuerzburg, for producing these charts for me.

What the gold price reveals about house prices

Now we look at a long-term chart of UK house prices measured in gold, a store of wealth that governments, for all their hard work, find considerably harder to debase. It's a rather different picture.

Average UK house price in ounces of gold, 1930 to date

You can see that, until the late 1990s, UK house prices traded in a range between 50 ounces for the average UK house (1930s and 1980) and 300 ounces (early 1970s, late 1980s).

In late 2004, with gold at around $400 an ounce and the average UK house price just above £150,000 (below where they are now) that ratio hit an unprecedented high. It took more than 700 ounces of gold to buy the average UK house.

With gold now around $1,400 (about £900 per ounce) and house prices in the £165,000 zone, the ratio has broken through the 200 ounces barrier and sits at 183. Indeed, measured in gold, UK housing has already fallen below the lows of the early to mid-1990s.

Yet for all the falls since 2004, at current prices (183 gold ounces) we are still above the long-term average which is around 150 ounces. I suspect we'll go well below that.

Here is the chart in close-up, since 1999. That is what a real, grinding bear market – the sort of deflation that governments and central banks are now printing money to avoid – looks like.

Average UK house price in ounces of gold, 1999 to date

For those based in London or Scotland, here's a chart of your neighbourhood priced in gold. I see 200 gold ounces (currently £180,000) for the average London home (currently costing c. £340,000) as a very realistic target. We now sit at 380 ounces.

UK, London and Scotland house prices in ounces of gold

How UK house prices compare to silver

The more adventurous – some might say impetuous – investors did not sell real estate and buy gold, however. They bought the more volatile silver. Here is a long-term chart of UK house prices measured in silver.

Average UK house price in ounces of silver, 1930 to date

In 2004, when silver was trading at around $6 an ounce, it took almost 50,000 ounces to buy the average UK home. But in 1980, when silver went to $50, you could buy the average UK home for just 1,000 ounces. (Today 1,000 ounces of silver would cost you just £20,000).

Here is that silver chart in close-up, since 1999. As you can see the ratio has slipped below 10,000 ounces. (The long-term average is in the 6-8,000 ounce range).

Average UK house price in ounces of silver, 1999 to date

So what now?

Well, I remain a bull on precious metals and a bear on housing. The trade is maturing, but the run is not over. Long-term holders of gold and silver should sit tight.

Silver, and the leading silver stocks, have gone absolutely bananas of late and there are lots of arguments for those with shorter time horizons to take some money off the table here and await a correction. But there are just as many arguments – from short squeezes on the Comex, to supply shortages, to government money printing – for higher prices too.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of reasons – from unbelievably strict lending criteria to the threat of rising unemployment – that augur serious falls even in nominal UK house prices.

Now that would be a surprise.

Our recommended article for today

Why you need to keep some cash at hand

Most investors are convinced by the inflation argument. But Bengt Saelensminde isn't so sure. The threat of deflation hasn't gone away, he says. Here, he explains why keeping some cash handy could leave you with the last laugh.

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  • 1. Bob

    (08 December 2010, 10:57AM)  Complain about this comment

    I have faithfully and naively listened to MW's belief that UK house prices will tank - I have been faithfully believing this for 5 or 6 years now.

    UK house prices are not collapsing.

    This article comparing the price of a UK house to gold is just a confirmation of how wrong MW has been on house prices. It seems that MW is just a one horse pony - gold, gold, gold!

    The vast majority of people in the UK buy houses with Pounds and not with gold or silver or anything else. To the vast majority gold is a high risk speculation and people looking to buy a house by and large do not put their cash into high risk speculations - in fact, I recall a MSW Editorial from about a year back pointing out that if your aim is to buy a house to keep your money in cash and not speculate.

    This feels like a gold bug rubbing our noses in it Dominic. Sorry, but it needs to be said.

  • 2. Dennis

    (08 December 2010, 11:12AM)  Complain about this comment

    I have been in the gold and silver industry for over 30 years, as a manufacturer, and like everything else they are only worth what someone is prepared to pay.

    The metals are on a rise at the moment but it has been very steep and it will come to an end. I have learnt never to predict when that will be but have learnt that when more and more articles are published that preach that the ordinary investor should pile in, is the moment to start worrying.

    Maybe the time to sell is closer than you think?

    There is a difference with houses for most people. They use them to live in and so long as the loan or mortgage is affordable, they can be a sensible buy.

  • 3. Mike

    (08 December 2010, 11:13AM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic, I sold my silver last month on your advice, so have missed out on the 7.5% gain since then. Do you still expect a pull-back?

  • 4. MTTS

    (08 December 2010, 11:18AM)  Complain about this comment

    Every Thursday I thumb through a weighty property supplement delivered with the free weekly paper. I have noticed significant falls in property prices. Mainly the mid to low end, high end always holds on. I live about 12 miles from Cambridge where only the seriously daft with more money than sense can afford to live. The pressure has pushed people out, at first here where I moved to 16 years ago and now far beyond. The Monte Carlo style commuter chase every morning speaks volumes. Around here properties that sold for £220,000 three years ago now fetch £186,000. What this says to me is that a long overdue correction is taking place. On the other side private rental rates are just darn silly.

  • 5. Nick

    (08 December 2010, 11:53AM)  Complain about this comment

    On the other side private rental rates are just darn silly.

    ==============

    If people aren't buying demand goes up for rentals. Very simple.

  • 6. Sven

    (08 December 2010, 11:57AM)  Complain about this comment

    Well said Bob!

    Secure, mimimum risk long term investment which will not erode with the well made point about fiat currency is what we all need before any risky investment such as any commodity.

    Well located quality property held for the long term has to be it!

  • 7. Steve

    (08 December 2010, 12:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bengt, in realtion to the article on spreadbetting gold via adding to a pyramid, I was wondering exactly how this is approached. After the price has risen, do I add new money to the account and then purshase the additional points with these new funds. Or alternatively, do I use the gains on the existing points to purchase new points (while keeping the overall stops at 15%). Clearly, the latter is more risky (definitely not for widows or ophans), but means that only the original funds are used.

  • 8. andrew

    (08 December 2010, 12:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting analysis,but the really scary graph was the first one,about house prices.Correct me if I'm wrong,but it looks to me like a classic 'bubble that's just burst' graph and comparing it with any number of such events,the graph can only go lower and by a long way.Conservatively to £50,000 or so,but in the nature of markets overshooting,probably towards £25,000!The consequences of this really are too cataclysmic to contemplate and maybe this is what the Central Banks are really scared of and are desperately trying to avoid.The fact that commodities may or may not rise in the short run is almost an irrelevance,because if house prices fall to £50,000 or so then commodities too will be in the dustbin.Sorry,not very seasonal thoughts!

  • 9. steve

    (08 December 2010, 12:26PM)  Complain about this comment

    UK Property is a very attractive investment at current prices, especially in London.

    Whats wrong with 6-7% yields in a market where there is shortage of quality properties to rent out ? This is not going to Collapse and nowhere in Europe the opportunity is so huge as in London.

    As with Japan ( 5 years in a row you predicted it to be nr1 performer) you have it wrong with property

  • 10. Tony

    (08 December 2010, 12:29PM)  Complain about this comment

    The word 'value' is bandied about far too carelessly. In my book value is 'usefulness', this therefore excludes the definition that 'value is the price someone is prepared to pay'. In fact that definition is what got us to where we are now, high Gold prices and still high house prices.

    Gold is rare, pretty, non-corrosive and has good conductivity. These actual uses are relatively small compared with the speculator markets. The real problem is some people have too much fiat currency and non-longer want to invest in property. That does not mean Gold has more 'Value', it just means deluded people are prepared to pay more for it. When the collapse comes, Gold will crash too.

  • 11. BabesAgainstTheMachine

    (08 December 2010, 12:38PM)  Complain about this comment


    Gold is then "investment" in times of fear. All this analysis tells us is that investors are desperate to hold onto their wealth. As soon as the Government meddling stops, gold will freefall along with everything else.

  • 12. David

    (08 December 2010, 01:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    Brilliant Dominic, threw up a few graphs then step away.
    Loving the comments, get the feeling some people are taking this really personally. Aren't we talking about investments as opposed to buying a house to live in?

    Hey as long as the Fed keeps printing money like it's going out of fashion, the longer I hold onto my Gold. As soon as they stop, I'm out. Unfortunately these aren't ordinary times and it is indeed looking like a race to the bottom of who can debase their currency the quickest.

  • 13. j barrows

    (08 December 2010, 01:07PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bob - fear not, the denouement is yet to be played out. Relative to average earnings, house prices are still exceptionally high, the only reasons maintaining the levitating act are QE and interest rates which have been nailed to the floor as central banks around the world desparately try to bail out the commercial banks. It can't last - rises in gold and silver are symptomatic of the currency debasement that is occurring and is yet to take place. Oil, grains, food, chemicals, wherever you look prices are rising - there is an anticipated and incipient inflation problem; the great inflation that central banks ignored (real estate) is now being reflected in everyday essentials. Ergo, interest rates will have to rise and when they do housing will continue the decline. Hang on a while longer; against a back drop of tighter lending, job losses, rising interest rates, etc you'd have to be an optimist to expect HPI.

  • 14. Dividends

    (08 December 2010, 01:20PM)  Complain about this comment

    Steve

    6-7% yield in an illiquid property market isn't very attractive and London doesn't have a shortage of rental property. I viewed a dozen flats in Oct, selected the one I wanted and talked the landlord down £125 a month with no deposit. Now boiler work is being done, costing him £280 already and more to come. As a landlord [I am one myself] this is what you have to deal with.

    Try high quality blue chips on the LSE. Scottish and Southern Energy (SSE) yields about 6% with a 10% annual growth in the dividend, National Grid (NG.) is similar so you get regular cash dividend payments that you can reinvest into more shares thus compounding, with the chance for share appreciation over time. If the share price drops the dividend remains and you can buy more shares thus lowering your cost base and boosting your returns.

    I bought some more SSE yesterday, it took 60 seconds online. To sell is just as easy all for a commission of under 20 quid. Try that with property yielding 6-7%.

  • 15. steve123

    (08 December 2010, 01:30PM)  Complain about this comment

    Silver is doing a mini pull-back today - currently it is at 6% below yesterday's high of 30.7. That being said, I find it impossible to time this market either for gold or silver - I think the long-term trend is up for the time being so I am staying in, until I sell the lot for good.

    By the way, does anyone know of a tickertape showing all commodity prices? I have one for gold and silver, but would like to cover oil as well.

  • 16. Benjamin U.

    (08 December 2010, 01:44PM)  Complain about this comment

    Sir, again an excellent analysis and presentation. Investors who have been accumulating the yellow metal but would want to go long, should take advantage of the the fallen house prices and swap gold for houses. In the long run, he/she would look back and smile, that is, when gold/house parity shifts downwards in the UK; and they will shift.

  • 17. montesquieu

    (08 December 2010, 01:45PM)  Complain about this comment

    Gold is such a no-brainer right now that everyone and his aunt is getting into it ... what does that tell you about where it's headed?

    Gold is a bubble, like house prices were a bubble before that. Houses are purchased, overwhelmingly, in local currency by local people who pay the money back out of local earnings. they don't buy them in gold or silver or even in Euros or Rubles. So the whole premise of the comparison is a complete fantasy.

    Graphs are always fun to play with but just because you can plot a set of values doesn't mean they have any relationship or that the plot has anything meaningful to tell us

    We are still in a house price bubble, the gold bubble inflated later, both will deflate over time at their own pace though being far more of a liquid asset, the gold bubble when it does pop will pop much faster and harder. End of. (And don't bore me with 'but it's different this time' as we've heard it all before).


  • 18. Bertha Vanation

    (08 December 2010, 01:52PM)  Complain about this comment

    Is this article about the housing market or gold prices? The fundamentals for each are completely different. Gold is a store of value and a hedge against irresponsible governments that debase currencies with artificially low interest rates and money printing.

    Property is well, property, the two are not linked and do not move either inversely or together. The comparisons and interesting but where does all of this data take us, is it relevant?

  • 19. Tony

    (08 December 2010, 01:56PM)  Complain about this comment

    I reckon gold and silver could go up massively, just have a look of the chart of how much money has been pumped into the system by the fed - its unreal, gold has always followed the overall money supply throughout history and if it does this time it will to thousands an ounce, i know it sounds daft but just have a read what is going on, mike maloney on goldsilver.com has some good videos about it, remember history is on the side of gold no fiat currency has ever survived in the history of the world!
    The fed prints money backed by nothing, also the fractional reserve banking system which not many people understand also expands the money supply...
    Also have a read who is profiting from all the interest payments on the bailout loans, the fed, who owns the fed? private individuals bankers - the most successful scam in the history of the world!

  • 20. TCH

    (08 December 2010, 02:11PM)  Complain about this comment

    Pathetic, this article is practically a Xerox of the one published online by the self-same Mr. 'Goldbug' Frisby a few months ago which prompted me to cancel my Moneyweek subscription such was its absurdity. As numerous commentors have already pointed out people do not tend to put all their savings into a speculative hedge (gold) for the purposes of buying a property as it would be 'insane'. Even the most rabid gold-bug probably wouldn't recommend putting more than 5-10% of your assets into gold due to its historical volatility, remember between 1980 (its previous peak) and 2000 (the start of it recent inexorable climb) it fell it real terms for 20-years. Volatile investments are not appropriate for secure savings intended for a critical purchase (such as a house, car, etc).

  • 21. Larry

    (08 December 2010, 02:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    This is actually a very bad article that is highly misleading to investors (as opposed to speculators). What the charts don't show is the yield and compounded return of the yields on properties.

    As investors, we look at total returns on investments and by discounting the yields, you are just arguing for the sake of speculation. Shocking that such a respectable publication makes such a bad error.

    Do me a favour and produce a chart showing the effect of compounded yield (like you do for reinvested dividend) and then you may rebase to gold or silver if you like.

    Please give us unbiased charts on how to invest, rather than speculate with metals that will sit there looking pretty but gives no return apart from speculative capital gain/loss.

  • 22. Colin

    (08 December 2010, 02:21PM)  Complain about this comment

    Is there some sort of 'basket of assets' that can be used to try to evaluate these and other similar graphs? I do not doubt the facts presented, but cannot help but think that 2004 was about when the UK sold a vast ampount of gold at the bottom of the market. It would be good to have a 3rd line on the graphs showing some more consistent global measure that would show when either or both gold and houses were out of line with some sort of global measuring stick of value. Does such a measure exist?

  • 23. Ged

    (08 December 2010, 02:31PM)  Complain about this comment

    I picked the silver story up in 2006 and have not looked back. At the time it was a tale about the fundamentals of supply and demand rather than economic uncertainty. It's now about Wall Street corruption and naked short selling, printing money and basically trying to protect yourself from discredited Keynes based economic policies.

    Gold and silver are really only just starting to move. They will in time move int bubble territory but not for some time. When it's a daily headline item on the general BBC News we will be able to safely say it has become a bubble.

    Anyone looking at UK property and seeing prices rise and not living in the same country as the rest of us. With university fees set to rise to £9,000 p.a. where on earth are the first time (and jobless?) buyers going to find 'starter home' money? Three years at £9,000 plus another £20,000 for basic living expenses will leave students of 2015 with debts of £50,000.

  • 24. Roger

    (08 December 2010, 02:42PM)  Complain about this comment

    Sorry to say this but this is possibly one of the most confusing investment article / arguments i have ever read.

  • 25. David

    (08 December 2010, 02:48PM)  Complain about this comment

    @Ged, don't worry we'll just print some more money problem solved.

  • 26. Tim

    (08 December 2010, 02:51PM)  Complain about this comment

    I'm a sucker for Leveraged ETFs. I sold Silver recently on Dominic's advice at a nice profit and am looking to get back in. I'm also thinking about piling into Leveraged Natural Gas. It's dropped drastically over the last few months but looks like it's picking up.

    Interesting thought linking house prices with gold/silver. Hey how about buying a house with units of Natural Gas?

  • 27. Cooldude

    (08 December 2010, 02:56PM)  Complain about this comment

    Gold and silver are definitely not in a bubble and have yet to rise significantly to get to their inflation adjusted highs of the 1970's. Paper currencies are desperately trying to devalue against each other and gold is the canary in the mine showing this. Gold is not in fact rising it is the paper currencies that are falling and will continue to fall untill this endless printing stops.

  • 28. Tony

    (08 December 2010, 03:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    Its a giant Ponzi scheme, they should free Bernie Madoff from jail and make him the chairman of the Fed, IMF and BoE he will show us how to print our way out of this. Then gold & houses can go to infinity$ and we will all live happy ever after...
    I can not understand how clever people with degrees in economics do not get how much of a joke the system is.

  • 29. John

    (08 December 2010, 03:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    Bottom line is that property has to be worth what it costs to build, land cost, labour, raw materials, even builders profit which in turn drags up prices for comparable older properties and without new houses prices and rents still drive upwards.

  • 30. Kit

    (08 December 2010, 04:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    I think the comparison of precious metals to house prices is a non argument. The metals are appreciating as a hedge against inflation which, as you say, governments can't tinker with. Housing will go up and down depending on affordability, rates, demand, credit, employment, feel good factors, etc. To say that buying a house in gold ounces has dropped to an all time low is a non sequitor. Its like saying the price of bananas is at an all time high because Hull City lost at home last week.

  • 31. little knows montesquieu

    (08 December 2010, 04:19PM)  Complain about this comment

    It sure does make sense to compare gold and houses, if alone for the reason that all paper currencies so far have proven to come with a limited lifespan, while houses and gold are known to last.

    As gold has always had a monetary component (though valued variably over time), comparing houses and gold might provide some insight about the 'real value' of homes, instead of the value measured in local currencies that are printed ever more these days.

    The reason gold prices have been on a rise for the past decade is because the yellow metal has been rediscovering its monetary value. Unfortunately, the general public is still boasting about bubbles and afraid to buy (phycisal) gold.

    I guess that's only logical as we’ve recently seen what a bubble was, and those not knowing about their existence are now looking to apply their newly learned knowledge in the real world, spotting bubbles in everyone and his aunt.

    It is becoming somewhat of a bubble, all this talk about them.

  • 32. Tom O'Neill

    (08 December 2010, 04:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    Brilliant article - great charts. Many thanks to Dominic.
    Surely gold is not a 'bubble' - it is simply a trend that has become more universally known, via ever-wider faster and more reliably accessible internet communication. In the late 1970s the idea of an ordinary PI being able (even allowed!) to trade the price of gold, live, with a click of the button, as a physically-backed ETF, would have been thought a fairy-tale or activity confined to a few in an inner circle.
    And back then there was much less widespread understanding of what governments were doing to their currencies, and what it would lead to. Now the world and his wife can see what they're doing. There is more and better financial education among the people.
    We need still more of it. That's where articles like this one help tremendously.

  • 33. paper gold is for fools

    (08 December 2010, 04:48PM)  Complain about this comment


    "In the late 1970s the idea of an ordinary PI being able (even allowed!) to trade the price of gold, live, with a click of the button, as a physically-backed ETF, would have been thought a fairy-tale or activity confined to a few in an inner circle."


    Buying ETFs is not buying gold; it is buying paper. Papergold is in a bubble and very dangerous. Buy the physical stuff!!!!

  • 34. Tom O'Neill

    (08 December 2010, 05:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    pgiff
    I've researched in some detail before investing, and I must disagree with you - 'paper' gold is no more a bubble than physical gold itself.
    A few ETFs that have been questioned - e.g. GLD and SLV. But many gold ETFs - such as PHGP & PHSP (for example) are physical backed ETFs that conform to London Delivery Standards, with gold held at specific locations in London and deliverable on demand. The price is accurately tracked.
    You can also or instead hold mining funds, which have the same standards as every other OIEC. I have invested in these since 2004: their long term performance exceeds that of gold itself.
    You need to be able to sell *any* investment when necessary. You cannot do that easily with physical gold, which also needs expensive storage or a safe - these are all risks.
    As soon as interest rates rise show any sign of being set above inflation, I'll be ruthlessly out of gold, at the click of a button.

  • 35. Tom O'Neill

    (08 December 2010, 05:13PM)  Complain about this comment

    sorry, typo in penultimate line: "As soon as interest rates show any sign of rising above inflation..."

  • 36. mb

    (08 December 2010, 05:33PM)  Complain about this comment

    Rampity Ramp!

    Wanted : new entrants and greater fools - This trend has only just started!

    There really is no instrinsic value in gold except for what you can convince someone its worth now and percieved value in the future.

    If your really worried about hyperinflation get :

    long dated tinned foods, dried packet foods,
    bottled water, shotgun and shotgun ammo, fuel

    If fiat goes to sh!t you'll need it more than gold and besides the government would take your gold away.

    When people realise that fiat isnt going anywhere then the gold price collapses just like any market when theres no greater fools or new entrants.

  • 37. mb

    (08 December 2010, 05:33PM)  Complain about this comment

    Rampity Ramp!

    Wanted : new entrants and greater fools - This trend has only just started!

    There really is no instrinsic value in gold except for what you can convince someone its worth now and percieved value in the future.

    If your really worried about hyperinflation get :

    long dated tinned foods, dried packet foods,
    bottled water, shotgun and shotgun ammo, fuel

    If fiat goes to sh!t you'll need it more than gold and besides the government would take your gold away.

    When people realise that fiat isnt going anywhere then the gold price collapses just like any market when theres no greater fools or new entrants.

  • 38. rishi

    (08 December 2010, 05:59PM)  Complain about this comment

    @bob: 'The vast majority of people in the UK buy houses with Pounds and not with gold or silver’- so whers the prob... sell u r gold and buy house with the £s that way u buy u r house w/o needin 2 earn to extra £s, rise in gold price compensates the rise in house price!
    @steve: most ppl buy house with 20% down (or evenless) so if u think the interest portion of the monthly payment coupled with the upkeep+insurance of the property means the rental yield drops practically to 0 (not 6% as u mentioned) and if someone has £160k there are lots of hassel free investments which yield upto 5% per anum (FDs) so if u subtract upkeep and insurance its better value!
    @TCH: yes 10-15% of u r portfolio in gold/silver cud have raised u r down payment on house to full payment in past 7 yrs!
    keepin 10-15% in gold is exactly the way to go, does not change the teachings of this article one bit!
    @larry: there is hardly ne yield in property..(0.5% after all expenses if u r lucky!)

  • 39. JPQ

    (08 December 2010, 06:04PM)  Complain about this comment

    I found this article simply incomprehensible (mainly because I do not understand the correlation between property prices and gold), and reading the comments I am none the wiser because opinions are so diverse. That is the standout feature of this recession - there is no concensus, and virtually no discernible expertise. From anyone, or any institution/publication. I happen to believe property prices will crash for one simple reason - the Estate Agents will eventually exhaust their loan facilities. And when they do that they will only be able to generate the working capital necessary for them to remain in business by earning the commission income on sales that they are clearly not earning in the prevailing market. That will be the crisis point at which they advise vendors to significantly lower prices, thereby stimulating house sales transactions.

  • 40. Jase

    (08 December 2010, 06:54PM)  Complain about this comment

    Gold and silver are NOT in a bubble. People talk about it but very few actually own metal. The reason is that you need liquid cash to buy it and very few have that. All their 'wealth' is tied up in the house and thats just debt anyway. When it comes down to it there are very few that would put tens/hundreds of thousands away in metal for a rainy day. Its just too contrarian to most as they have a fundamental disconnect with what value is. To own metal you must have come to the realisation that governments lie and inflate their way out of trouble at your expense. I really don't think most people are that savvy when it comes to money or politics.

  • 41. Bob's Your Uncle

    (08 December 2010, 10:23PM)  Complain about this comment

    Keep challenging people's thinking Dominic - it's a topic not easily absorbed by the general public at large.

    In a nutshell we have a huge bubble in fiat currencies that is nearing it's terminal stage. History's page will once again show that those who fail to take action and preserve wealth will suffer the well known consequences.

  • 42. larry

    (08 December 2010, 11:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    Ponder this for a moment. What the article does not show is that if you use a simplistic calculation of 10% yield on property, you actually would get back the price of the property in under 9 years based on compound interest of 3%. Applying this to the charts, it would make a free house after 9 years a very cheap comparison to GOLD. Actually, it would make gold look infinitely expensive!

    Plus, you have capital risk with gold. Of course you may not achieve 10% and also there is the issue of tax just to be impartial. (unlike the article).

    Please Dominic, I am sure you can do better analysis and article than that. Don't use skewed statistics to shock people into making a very important investment decision.

    Just in case anyone is interested, I have also invested in gold and silver but am limiting it to a small part of my portfolio due to the inherent risks and zero yield nature of metals.

  • 43. larry

    (08 December 2010, 11:35PM)  Complain about this comment

    @rishi. I am not arguing the case for gold/silver or property as I am invested in gold AS WELL AS. I am merely pointing out the glaring error in the article not being impartial as it should have been. If you invested in property and find yourself with 0.5% return after all expenses, then you should seriously question your judgement in going into property in the first place.

    The maths is simple. Buy £200k worth of gold, you get £200k plus whatever % gain/loss of gold price in 10 years. Buy £200k worth for properties in the right places, you get anywhere from a bad 5% to a good 15% net of all expenses.

    Example: a bog standard £200k flat in london with fetch you rental of around £900pm or £10800 a year. After all costs, it would still net you at least $9k. That is before adding the cost of property!

    What the charts don't show is how the rental yields affect the price comparison to gold! It is pure maths. You must add everything the investment brings.

  • 44. larry

    (08 December 2010, 11:57PM)  Complain about this comment

    in other words, for a truly unbiased article and charts, it must incorporate any yields that the underlying investment brings.

    eg, if you bought SSE yielding 6% at 1100p, your net position would be worth 1166 even if the share price stayed 1100p.

    To apply this logic to the chart, taking an average UK yield of 5% on properties, in 10 years, it would knock £130k (through magic of compound interest) off the price of a £200k property meaning that the chart should show the property price at £70k (£200k-£130k) if it is to take everything into account.

    FYI, I average 9% yield pa. on my properties before counting any capital gains/loss. I haven't got a crystal ball to tell you where the gold price will be in 10 years but I know I will end up with an extra free property after less than 10 years. FOR SURE.

    I might get back less than I invested if I sold the original property but I have already banked the free property!

  • 45. larry

    (09 December 2010, 12:08AM)  Complain about this comment

    No risk, no speculation on price up/down. Good old steady yield.

    Same goes for 'top quality' and I stress 'top quality' high yield stocks. Can't beat them as you don't have to guess. Don't have to worry if market goes up, down, sideways. Just keep banking your yields. Who cares if property prices go down. It mean yield ggoes up! Fantastic. buy another one in 10 years with the rent money and make even more money.

    Can't do the same with gold. If gold price goes down after 10 years, you are stuck with a loss! Will have to wait another 10 years to see if you get out of the hole.

  • 46. Stephan

    (09 December 2010, 01:17AM)  Complain about this comment

    Silly article (and I'm bearish on property).

    @43. Larry

    You said: "anything from a bad 5% to a good 15%.."
    Then gave as an example a £9k yield on a £200k flat...surely that 'pure maths' of yours is a little out?

  • 47. larry

    (09 December 2010, 09:42AM)  Complain about this comment

    @46 stephan

    you are right. 9k over £200k is 'a little out' coming in at 4.5%. But the gross yield in the example is 10.8k so it stands at 5.4%. Simple and pure maths.

    To be impartial, you need to compare apple to apple. There are costs holding any classes of assets unless you store your gold bars under your bed. that's why I used gross yield of 5.4%. You can achieve far higher if you took on the right property.

    I am not slagging any classes of assets. I am merely pointing out the glaring error of not including yield in the article's illustrations from an investment point of view.

    Statistics don't lie. It is how you dress it up to mislead that does the damage. Dominic should be in politics.

  • 48. Chuck

    (09 December 2010, 10:15AM)  Complain about this comment

    @5. Nick

    On the other side private rental rates are just darn silly.

    ==============

    If people aren't buying demand goes up for rentals. Very simple.

    ==============

    I don't think the simple link between buying & rental demand is tenable.

    What were those would be buyers doing before they wanted to buy a house? They either were already renting, already "own" a home, or living at home with parents. I envisage only those moving from living at home to renting (due to not buying) has a net impact on rental demand. Moving from ownership to renting releases housing stock for either purschase/rental.

    On the otherside of the equation, housing stock is released for purschase/rental by the geratric population dying.

    I don't think it is as simple as "people not buying so rent goes up"...

  • 49. Roger

    (09 December 2010, 03:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    The only way I can accept that the relationship between HPs and the gold price has any relevence, and thus 'unconfuse myself' is to assume that the price of gold, at all times, represents its value -and is thus the norm or benchmark against which we value all other assets. But that approach doesn't work for me.

  • 50. w2w

    (10 December 2010, 11:13AM)  Complain about this comment

    Andrew - I agree.

    PM's are in a bubble, which is simple speculation. Like Oil going from $10 to $147 then back to $30, PM's will fall hard at a not too distant point.

    However, so will UK property prices. In a deflationary credit contraction cash will be king. Interest rates are at multi decade lows and have only one way to go from here. When rates past 10% and heaqd for 15% we will see what UK property is really worth. People have been conned into thinking that rates will stay low indefinitely, they won't. Look at what has/is happening in the US or Ireland or Greece or Spain, that is the future here too and it has a long long way to go in those place too.

  • 51. w2w

    (10 December 2010, 11:38AM)  Complain about this comment

    Those expecting inflation have it wrong. Central Banks are desparately printing in a vain attempt to prevent deflation. They are losing the battle. We have a world wide fiat money system that requires debt to increase continually, as all new money has to be borrowed into existance. When the new debt money is created, by it being borrowed, the interest isn't created. This means that at any point in time there isn't enough money in existance to repay the principal + interest. Therefore the debt bubble must continue to inflate or we get a deflationary spiral - which is what we are now seeing slowly begin.

    The FED may have created $3.3 trillion in new money since 2007, but US property prices alone have deflated by $9T so far since 2006. CB's can't keep up with the shrinking debt bubble as debt is paid or written off.

  • 52. w2w

    (10 December 2010, 12:18PM)  Complain about this comment

    http://pragcap.com/ny-fed-president-printing-money

    NY Fed President Bill Dudley also rejected the widely held view that the Fed is really printing money. “What we’re doing is, when we buy Treasury securities, we are increasing the amount of reserves in the banking system. For those reserves to actually create money, the banks actually have to lend those reserves out. The problem with the U.S. economy now is that there is insufficient lending and he doesn’t expect the Fed’s purchase program to solve that problem because there are ample reserves in the system.

    - so as I said above the problem is the debt bubble is deflating, as less is being borrowed into existance. So less exists to pay the interest on the existing debt mountain. Many Western economies are headed for implosion. Austerity will hasten the collapse.

  • 53. jake

    (11 December 2010, 02:28PM)  Complain about this comment

    Excellent article again. A lot of muppets here. Silver 50 GBP and houses 150K looks easy peasy. 3000oz. I'd say at least that again to 1500ox/house sooner than you think. TCH what is your problem? Silver is up up and away.
    Read the article again. And again . And again until you do understand. Its important.

  • 54. Jerry

    (12 December 2010, 01:38PM)  Complain about this comment

    An interesting article, as indeed are the comments. Yes charts are charts as are stats and with stats you can weave a tale. Nevertheless I contradicted my Financial Advisor and took up an interest in Gold and it helped with a 30% gain to recover some of his losses. Now I an out of property. I would consider commercial property too risky, who is going to stump up for higher rent's as they battle to keep margins high and costs low?
    Private property will be different as it will be subject to Mr Pickles new planning regime. This could encourage building but may well ( and I suspect this will happen) stifle development as local folk squabble fight and stall any projects. Now this could add value to 'protected' locations but devalue the commodity property. Barber shop gossip round here reports a 25% drop in the actual prices paid for 'standard' houses but picturesque property is maintaining its value.

    Stick with gold as your cash but prepare to jump when it is 'news'.

  • 55. ian

    (12 December 2010, 10:24PM)  Complain about this comment

    when i first bought a house. back in the 1970`s, the bank would not lend me money for a mortgage, for over two and a half times my earnings. If you take average earnings of around £25,000, then to get back to an affordable average house price, they have to fall in relative terms [wage inflation adjusted], to around £63,000. The wage inflation will happen as the price of commodities rise, after all houses are only built using up vast quantities of materials,and it is the cost of land that has risen too much. So i expect housing to continue to drop little bits over the next ten years whilst wages catch up. Gold however will continue to rise in price until the trillions of pounds of Bank/Sovereign debts are inflated away by currency debasement. This could last for many years yet. The Time to sell gold is when there is panic buying and its price jumps in great magnitude every week!

  • 56. Angela Brown

    (13 December 2010, 11:03AM)  Complain about this comment

    Hello Sir/Mam,

    I am Angela Brown, contributory writer for some financial communities. I just visited your site: http://www.moneyweek.com and trust me I really liked the work you have done for your site. I read some of the articles and they were just to good. Few of them were very informative and well written.

    After seeing this, I have come to the conclusion that I would do something for your site with your prior permission. I would love to write an original article as a "Guest" on any financial topic of your choice. In return you can give me a back-link either in the content or the author bio section. The article will be 100% original and will be published only in your site.

    Please let me know if you are open to normal link exchange as well? I would love to hear your ideas and requests.

    Thanks,

    Angela Brown
    Content Marketing Executive
    add me on FB : http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001465303818

  • 57. Roger

    (13 December 2010, 11:50AM)  Complain about this comment

    Angela -10/10 for chutzpah 2/10 for grammar.

  • 58. Roger

    (13 December 2010, 12:15PM)  Complain about this comment

    There are investors who, many years ago, bought physical gold on the understanding that it would forever protect them from the ravages of inflation. 30 years later they have finally come to accept that their gold investment has not only not produced an income, but has in fact lost out against inflation.
    For gold to have been a 'buy' all those years ago it would now need to be trading at over $4,000/oz and have produced an icome yield od about 6% p/a. This highlights the difference between theory and practice, because so often when theory is put into practice, it just does't work. Gold is ok, maybe, as a tempory insurance. Gold shares are an investment.

  • 59. larry

    (13 December 2010, 02:34PM)  Complain about this comment

    sensible comments by Roger, Ian, Jerry, W2W that are backed up by logical arguments even if the views are different.

    Shame about Jake who is just interested in calling others names while making no logical contribution. Just speculative numbers plucked out of thin air by 'GUT FEEL'. Ask Alan Sugar what he thinks of gut feel.

    Each person has different perception of risk and strategies/objective in investment. It is the thinking and calculations behind the individual's investment decision that is important. Calculations that take all factors into account are paramount.

  • 60. azazel

    (15 December 2010, 07:33PM)  Complain about this comment

    Those who say that it is irrelevant to price houses in gold and silver are missing the point completely. Gold and silver were and are money. Check your history. Fiat is a modern experiment. So gold and silver are the bench mark, the reference by which we can measure the value of currencies, houses or any thing else. We could measure houses in terms of earnings which makes houses look ridiculously overpriced but the reality here is that earnings are low relative to houses. You will be sadly disappointed if you put your monetary trust in the central bankers rather than the natural, universally accepted money of precious metals.

  • 61. DrBubb from GlobalEdgeInvestors

    (16 December 2010, 12:11AM)  Complain about this comment

    LOL. funny comments.

    What the unclever Bob (Bob the Builder perhaps?) fails to realise is that some "did the trade" - ie, they sold their house and bought gold (and or gold shares). In fact, I believe that is what the author of this fine article did.

    So what Bob's silly comment does, is takes good advice that has been proffered (Sell Houses, Buy Gold),
    and tries to slag it off.

    More clever folk will see this as sour grapes, or some attempt to support common wisdom about house prices.

    NOMINAL HOUSE PRICES are about to take a good slide IMHO.

    A period of "crash cruise speed", with prices falling and average 0.5-1.0% per month (or more!) is now underway. And this has come after a year-old Dead Cat bounce that had been easy to predict. (The elixir of ultra-low rates could not last forever.)

  • 62. ISA

    (16 December 2010, 01:16PM)  Complain about this comment

    Dominic.

    Tim's comment 26 is a good idea, natural gas seems like it may make a great article.

    I always find silver,gold/house price ratios informative

  • 63. Billy Wonders

    (19 December 2010, 11:51AM)  Complain about this comment

    Interesting article, and of course resulting comments. As a property and metals holder, I have many different angles which could not possibly be articulated in 1000 characters. There have been a few comments which are just way off the scale of sensibility, and some which are spot on. As with most investments or speculations, it's all about the risks you are prepared to take, for the reward perceived. Taking into account the long or short term prospects is an absolute must, as of course is what you can feasibly afford to potentially lose within that timescale. CONT...

  • 64. Billy Wonders

    (19 December 2010, 11:52AM)  Complain about this comment

    Property has the obvious advantage, correctly pointed out by a previous commentator, that you can live in it. In the long term, property has traditionally been a very safe bet. To correct (In my opinion) another commentator, property is intrinsically linked to another factor. Availability. What with the border restrictions being lifted in the E.U. The U.K has 'suffered' a huge influx of immigration. These chaps obviously have to live somewhere. Add this to the absolutely nonsensical price increase of property, what do you have? A perfect rent opportunity. A consistent one at that too. If you want a 'safe' bet, stick with property. Speculation is at the very top of the pyramid, which must be backed up with a solid foundation. Until you have such a foundation, (or a brilliant mind) don't go there. further cont... (sorry!)

  • 65. Billy Wonders

    (19 December 2010, 11:53AM)  Complain about this comment

    My opinion is that gold is at the moment unlikely to reach further, and that purchasing it is not a very wise idea unless you are prepared to wait a long long time for a return. Thought of Palladium? It is one of the few metals which have risen in proportion to the others, and has industrial and jewelery uses. That to me represents a slightly safer bet than gold, which appears to appeal to investors who really are not too savvy at present. Any comments?

  • 66. Househunter

    (21 December 2010, 02:53PM)  Complain about this comment

    All very good but as I also commented on today's Money Morning, you can't live in gold and the same goes for silver, or even a graph, and those also won't give you happy memories in your old age.

    How about a graph comparing the gold price with property rental costs?

  • 67. Harry

    (17 January 2011, 06:50AM)  Complain about this comment

    ''The vast amount of gold is high risk speculation'' I think by looking at the charts the vast amount of property is high risk speculation..

    Study some Austrian economics before commenting again...

  • 68. Larry levin

    (23 February 2011, 04:10PM)  Complain about this comment

    When you compare house prices and gold, you must add the rental value of a house to compare like with like,

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