Home—Blog—What is the real cost of the EU?
Oct 30, 2012, 10:13
Posted byMerryn Somerset Webb
Comments (127)
Everyone’s beginning to get cross about the cost of the EU. The Prime Minister is against any large increases in the budget (although he is apparently OK with it rising in line with inflation); a good number of his party think that the budget should be frozen; and yesterday, the Labour party stepped into the fray with an article in The Times by those well known enthusiasts for austerity Ed Balls and Douglas Alexander.
They want the EU budget to actually be cut in real terms. They want it (if not us) to try to “do better with less”. But how much less exactly? The problem with mainstream politicians attempting to answer this (which Balls and Alexander don’t actually do) is that the cost of the EU to the UK isn’t just about the EU budget itself – the direct fiscal cost to UK taxpayers (£15.8bn at the moment, rising to £19.2bn by 2014/5), it’s about a great many other things as well.
And if you add them all in, the cost to the UK of being in the EU rather than being independent and having a free trade agreement with the EU, appears to be rather higher.
Tim Congdon wrote up his research on this for the UK Independence Party a few months ago. His conclusion? The UK is around 10% of GDP worse off as a result of its membership of the EU. 1% of the forgone GDP comes in the direct fiscal cost. Another 5% comes, says Congdon, from the costs of regulation.
Sign up for a 3-week FREE trial of MoneyWeek and get the following free as well
"The only financial publication I could not be without." John Lang, Director, Tower Hill Associates Ltd
Then there is 3.25% that he calculates results from resource misallocation (think CAP and the various bits and bobs of EU protectionism) and another 0.25% in the rise in unemployment among UK-born people as a result of the opening of the UK labour market in 2004.
To that you can add 0.25% for “waste, fraud and corruption” and finally 0.25% for the contingent liabilities of benefit tourism and the like. 10% altogether.
All these things are clearly complicated to measure and endlessly arguable about. But as Congdon says, the fact that it isn’t easy to figure out doesn’t mean it can be ignored: “there is no single exact number for the cost of the wreckage inflicted by a large hurricane but a large hurricane undoubtedly does inflict massive harm.”
The point? That cutting the EU budget by a couple of percent in real terms probably isn’t going to make much difference. If Balls and Alexander want to cut the real cost of the EU to the UK, they will need to think a little harder. You can read the full report (and whether you instinctively feel 10% is a good ball park figure or an insane over estimate, you probably should) as well as the full rationale for all these numbers here.
Published in Blog More articles by Merryn Somerset Webb
By Merryn Somerset Webb, May 23, 2013
By Merryn Somerset Webb, May 22, 2013
May 16, 2013
Leave a comment
(30 October 2012, 02:37PM) Complain about this comment
Regards the cost of regulation, does this not make the false assumption that if Britain had sole sovereignty over these issues, we would not impose regulatory costs in dealing with pollution, financial services etc?My point is that even if we pulled out of Europe there would be many British voters who would vote for greater regulation of the City.
(30 October 2012, 05:49PM) Complain about this comment
We've written here before that in terms of free trade deals it would make more sense for the UK to focus on the Commonwealth than Europe. This piece makes that point nicely. bit.ly/UcUAeW
(30 October 2012, 06:50PM) Complain about this comment
I have worked for some of the UK's largest companies and studied at its Universities.I'd love to see how this country plans to staff its companies and fund its Universities when only 20-30% of UK Universities consist of Brits and 30-40% at its companies.The minute you'd leave the EU, hundreds of thousands of EU students would go to Sweden, Netherlands and Germany to study and the same would be for workers. I am from the EU and if this happened I would leave the UK the next day, life is too small to have to deal with green cards while the country next door is 2x hospitable.
(30 October 2012, 08:30PM) Complain about this comment
Free trade is a great thing, as is skilled immigration – but it is beyond crazy having laws and regulations imposed by a foreign organization. The distance between policy makers and voters should be as small as possible; it’s hard enough being heard within our own shores, what hope has someone got with another layer of government added on top?The really scary thing is, governments always get bigger and more powerful - apparently Greece, Portugal, etc are in trouble because there is not enough political and fiscal integration in Europe!
(31 October 2012, 08:19AM) Complain about this comment
The amount of money wasted on the EU is a crying shame. If we left the EU there would be much more money available to spend on war.
(31 October 2012, 10:00AM) Complain about this comment
@3 Kon, where did you get those figures from, one suspects the top of your head.How many foreigners work in America and its large corporations? A fair number and America is much further trip from Europe than Britain. Anyway not all skilled workers are from Europe.
(31 October 2012, 10:57AM) Complain about this comment
4 GFL hits the nail on the head.My first instinct is to be in favour of closer union with the rest of Europe. Once you start trying to connect with national government over anything though, you quickly realise how difficult it is. For EU times this by ten.The EU is too big and diverse to be democratic. Managing our own country in a democratic way doesnt mean that we wouldnt we wouldnt continue with free trade or allow skilled people into the UK.
(31 October 2012, 04:34PM) Complain about this comment
Cost? You mean value. 1914 to 1957 European deaths in war 50 million plus. Since theTreaty of Rome fewer than 20,000. It is worth every penny to just to stop Germany and France trying to tear each other to bits.
(01 November 2012, 08:30AM) Complain about this comment
This sort of report is an embarassment. A UKIP report saying the EU costs us money. No consideration of what more it would cost the UK not to be in the EU. No consideration of the benefit side of the equation.This is bandwagon-pushing to distract from the real issues facing our economy (so much easier to blame johnny foreigner).
(01 November 2012, 04:19PM) Complain about this comment
If a group of turkeys commissioned a report and it recommended cancelling Christmas would we take notice? So why do we care about the conclusions of a report on the EU written on behalf of UKIP? Surely there are some slightly less partisan sources you could find. Not to say that the conclusions are totally wrong, but they will be skewed.The budget proposal from Brussels at a time of continent-wide stringency is self-serving and inappropriate, and I would think most MPs would agree on that. This whole issue in the Commons is about political point scoring and is therefore unimportant.
(02 November 2012, 06:30PM) Complain about this comment
'The minute you'd leave the EU, hundreds of thousands of EU students would go to Sweden, Netherlands and Germany to study and the same would be for workers. I am from the EU and if this happened I would leave the UK the next day, life is too small to have to deal with green cards while the country next door is 2x hospitable.'Good! population growth is the biggest concern for British people. It has to be controlled at any cost. We are reaching a crossroads. This goes beyond money. It really does. I go into my small town that I grew up and hardly hear a single English voice. It breaks my heart.
(02 November 2012, 10:49PM) Complain about this comment
It is a real shame that in Britain we are so led by EU ruling, that young and old generations of British people are losing out to job and housing opportunities due to more and more people being given a free pass to our country. I am not talking about skilled workers offered positions in areas where the UK has a shortage, I am talking about everyone else.A lot of people say that they are willing to do the jobs the Brits won't do this is not the case they will just do it cheaper. Many Brits would be happy to do those jobs but the wages are so low they are better off on benefits. Increase the wages and stop anyone that is not born in the UK from receiving benefits. You cannot claim benefits from the Spanish if you go to live in Spain. There would be more skilled British workers if further education and University was free for the British. Something has to change and coming out of the EU would be a start.
(03 November 2012, 07:00AM) Complain about this comment
So there are £75billion of unecessay annual regulatory costs ?I simply don't believe you Mr Congdon.
(03 November 2012, 08:25AM) Complain about this comment
Exactly as I thought. Have just read Tim C's report on the cost of EU regulation and it is clear that his quoted 5% figure is the most extreme number he could conjure up. Basically regulation (as most of us would understand) is 2% and most of this we would have even if he weren't in the EU. The only way to get to 5% is to include large sums for energy "regulation" by which he means all the carbon emission stuff.
(03 November 2012, 10:17AM) Complain about this comment
EU membership is fine if there is reciprocity. Fact is us Brits are ripped off while EU visitors actually get entitlements to housing and benefits in the UK. How many Brits live in subsidized housing,getting benefits in Europe? 20? 50? 100?Probably a handful.Free medical treatment is available here which is non-existent in EU. We need to trade with the EU,but they need to stop sticking 2 fingers up at EU laws and regulations. France is still mostly like the third world outside the main centres, Italy is a joke,only Germany is run like a 1st world country,and they have a huge immigrant problem
(03 November 2012, 10:23AM) Complain about this comment
Most of the negative comments on Europe concentrate on the fees we pay to the EU, not that I am against ensuring that the money spent is used effectively, but what price on peace, they also keep mentioning that we could have a free trade agreement, what makes them think that Europe would agree to that. I also bet that all those that have a negative view on Europe are totally against Scottish and Welsh independence which is really about returning power to the rightful people.
(03 November 2012, 10:34AM) Complain about this comment
What ever way you look at it, the two major benefits of the EEC have been free trade, and no major wars.The EEC has however grown into a grand bureaucratic creature which is wasteful, incompetent and self serving.We need less regulation and not more. The public sector model throughout the world is inefficient and ineffective and does not use any of the best management practices available. Indeed most of the bureaucrats and 'leaders' have no experience of running organisations. It is a gravy train for failed politicians. Better fail and get a job in Europe as a reward and gain untold wealth like so many politicans have done.The major benefit of a democracy it that every 5 years you can get rid of the last lot hoping that the next lot might be better.Of course they never are. We are actually controlled by yet more civil servants.Minimise the control of the State, and go back to the free trade area model without government interference.
(03 November 2012, 10:36AM) Complain about this comment
The UK should resign from the EU we would be better entering into a trade agreement. The Commission's wasteful spending and over-regulation of all members make it impossible to deal with.The fiscal (and political ) union will not be successful as the members will not agree.
(03 November 2012, 10:43AM) Complain about this comment
The problem with this whole issue is that even after years of debate, there is still no credible, unbiased report showing a real cost/benefit analysis of the UK's membership of the EU.Until this is produced, the British public have no way of making an informed decision. All opinions formed are, therefore, either based upon apathy or prejudice.
(03 November 2012, 10:47AM) Complain about this comment
There is a lot of talk about EU citizens living and working in the UK but no-one has mentioned the UK citizens working in the EU and many more living but not working in Spain and Portugal. Exiting the EU would lead to mass repatriation all round and I am not at all sure that the UK wouldn't come off worse.When I was young there were work opportunities in the Imperial possessions. If I wanted I could go and work in Kenya, Fiji, Hong Kong or dozens of other far flung places. That all stopped and for some years it was like living in a prison here - no right to go and work elsewhere. Then we joined the EU and the freedom to work outside the shores of these islands returned and millions of us have taken advantage of that. I dread losing that freedom, it is worth paying quite a lot to keep.
(03 November 2012, 10:55AM) Complain about this comment
If we were to peave the EU which in my opinion would be a good thing to do. The notion that they would not trade with is pure bunkum as we import more them than we export to them. This shows that they have much more to lose than us so it will be a good move to get out as soon as possible and then we should see our yearly deficit fall a little more easily.
(03 November 2012, 10:57AM) Complain about this comment
I am totaly agast at the FALSE insinuation that the EU have prevented wars in europe.There's been and still is organisation's still doing the peacekeeping :ie the likes of the UN/NATO.As to employment another fallacy is that there would'nt be enough homebred job seekers,there's several million seeking work in this country, so the answer would be to give them the right education and then make sure there is the apprentiships in the industries that are short of skilled workers.As to the unskilled, i know people from the UK who can't get work because of the influx from the eu and elsewhere of unskilled immigrants.
(03 November 2012, 11:06AM) Complain about this comment
I am always astonished at the belief that the EU is responsible for ending wars. It may have played some small part but the overwhelming causes have been NATO, the US and other nuclear capabilities, the collapse of the USSR, increasing trade and affluence, better information and more democracy. The last 3 are arguably under threat from the EU as we speak and the imposition of federalism, I believe, potentially poses a very serious threat to stability.I am equally astonished at the belief that, somehow, being independent of the EU would mean that customers in the EU would no longer buy our goods. They clearly would want to continue to sell us their goods - or are there those who believe in the "cutting off the nose to spite the face" argument? Toodle pip
(03 November 2012, 11:16AM) Complain about this comment
The LibLabCon will not allow a cost benefit analysis of the EU Empire. What are they frightened of ? Why do you vote for them ? Prof Tim Congden OBE is accused of slanting the figures .An insulting accusation I think , based on what ? I know that even he was shocked when the true costs emerged. He thought it would be max 7% of GDP and was astonished when the figure came out at 10%. Merryn Webb could do her own cost analysis if she has the expertise. But do be careful not to do any insane over estimating . LOL . The peace in Europe was of course kept by Nato and the threat was from the USSR. The EU did not exist in 1975 . as for freedom of movement mentioned by some . I worked in switzerland in 1966 and could have worked in Germany . if you have skills that are needed . Travel between countries is and was easy in Europe .Thankyou UKIP for providing this information on the cost , because we can see that LIbLabCon will not .
(03 November 2012, 11:19AM) Complain about this comment
Whilst I take some of the UKIP claims with a large pinch of salt, I am convinced that we would be a lot better off out of the EU - certainly in excess of 5% of GDP. Quite apart from the costs, we would be much more likely to develop trade faster in growing world markets if businesses were not looking inward on the non-growing EU to the extent that many are today. Are there any studies that quantify the benefits of EU membership? I am surprised that the very vociferous pro EU lobby isn't trumpeting them - other than the 3 million jobs and world peace claims which don't stand up to any serious examination that I've looked at. Toodle pip
(03 November 2012, 11:20AM) Complain about this comment
The big danger in Cameron's proposed budget deal is that apparently it is based on real terms, a.k.a. today's value plus inflation. But what inflation index will it be based on? CPI, RPI, Commodity Price Index, Producer Price Index etc? Also Lisbon Treaty Article 320 states that the funding shall be in Euros. So we have an unknown value, based on an unknown index at an unknown future exchange rate! Recipe for a disaster and the citizens of this country.
(03 November 2012, 11:23AM) Complain about this comment
Professor Tim Cogden is an internationally recognized and respected economist who has advised past governments and his cost analysis is drawn from official government and EU statistics, so carry weight. For many years, governments have refused to do an official cost benefit analysis because they know full well this would reveal the catastrophic cost of EU membership and end a fantastic gravy train for the political classes and the minority in this country who benefit from it and so sing its praises. Many such bought punters have done so in these comments. As an SME job creator all my life I see the damage done by EU membership. Few gain and a majority suffer.
(03 November 2012, 11:31AM) Complain about this comment
I believe in a European community - a common market - but not a superstate called the EU run centrally along French Napoleonic lines (always the ambition of the French, who vainly see themselves are rulers of Europe).Just look at the scandal of the CAP - most of which goes to French farmers!Just look at the waste and inefficiency of the European pariament moving to Strasburg for one week a month: a surreal and expensive absurdity!The Euro was wrong from the start - as German bankers well knew, but went along with for political reasons.But even without the Euro, the EU must be reformed root and branch - and run along efficient British and German lines, not some grand projet vanity project of pompous French.We should remember though that blaming the EU for everything is as silly as arguing it created world peace! Our own government is responsible to creating the context of too-easy low-interest-rate credit and too much mass immigration.
(03 November 2012, 11:48AM) Complain about this comment
I am pro EU , not least of all becausse it give European countries a voice in world affairs and not, as they have historically done, pander to political will of the US.I am not British but have lived here a long time. I was surprised, when I first arrived in Britain at how anti EU great swaths of the population are and how the EU is generally portrayed in the national press in completely negative terms. Anti - federalist sentiment is a central issue in the press but as ‘16 - inhabitant of the world’ said (above), the anti- federalist argument takes on a double standard when applied to Scotland. I genuinely think the interests of the majority are a higher priority from Brussels politics then Westminster politics. After all, it was only Britain and Poland who did not sign up for the Social Charter and Cameron, himself, is a proponent of getting rid of the Social Charter in its entirety. http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/163.htm
(03 November 2012, 11:52AM) Complain about this comment
Democracy is the ability to choose from a set of policies that you least dislike once every 5 years. No one in the main parties is going to ask us if we want to leave. I know its stupid but I just might HAVE to vote UKIP.
(03 November 2012, 11:53AM) Complain about this comment
Cont..I think Britain is peculiar within the EU because of the commonwealth, which Merryn refers to at 2. The necessity of being part of a larger economic block is satisfied with the added benefit of being the controlling partner. I am not blind to some of it’s inadequacies of the EU. As it stands, I think it lacks good democratic representation for it’s citizens. But I think governments worldwide, have been actively trying to minimise the input of its citizens and I include Westminster and Washington in this. Brussels is wasteful and too many people do not know who their MEPs are and how (or if) they are represented by them. Maybe the EU has lost it’s way. The decision to ‘stay in’ or ‘leave’ should be a political decision and not an economic one. The economic structure can be changed if the political will is there.
(03 November 2012, 11:55AM) Complain about this comment
High time we left the EU. I shall be voting UKIP at the next election as will many other people who I know.
(03 November 2012, 12:04PM) Complain about this comment
Obviously anything from UKIP will have a particular spin. Just two points of the many that have and could be made: What of the several hundred thousand UK nationals who live and work in other EU countries which certainly more than offsets the supposed rise in unemployment caused by migrant workers from the EU? Also countries like Norway, which is part of the European Economic Area and allows it some access to the internal market,pay fairly large contributions for this form of association (around €340 million) without having any say on policy or regulations.
(03 November 2012, 12:23PM) Complain about this comment
The EU is managed by a committee structure, which results in a lack of leadership and bad decisions. It also prevents decisions being made quickly in a crisis. The UK has to agree to the EU having a federal structure similar to that in the USA or Germany with directly elected EU leaders, or leave. Things will only get worse in the EU without total political integration and sharing of soverignity.
(03 November 2012, 12:34PM) Complain about this comment
Ah the Lidl Englanders of UKIP have woken up. Of course NATO was a force for good, but it was aimed at countering the Soviet Union. The EU has brought a variety of rival cultures together into a superstate with 27 capital cities , not one. It is a benign template that is aspired to by most nations within it's ambit from the Atlantic to the Caspian and even in N Africa. Europe is civilised, democratic and offers a largely non violent solution to age old problems. The EU will continue to expand peacefully into it's near abroad as the other choices for our neighbours; a totalitarian China, a belligerent USA and a corrupt Russia are less compelling. Free trade has had a much larger role in establishing the Pax Europa than a loose series of alliances creating a buffer zone for Uncle Sam.
(03 November 2012, 12:41PM) Complain about this comment
Britain would be better off out the EU , Germanys ability to start wars ended even before Hitler shot himself , treatys that followed were nice to hang on the wall but are meaningless and uneccessary , we owe it all to those who gave their lives fighting in the two wars , they done and dusted the whole thing , then useless politicians came in to claim credit for lasting peace as usual , what nonsense .The idea of foreign students studying in Sweden in preference to the UK well please go for it , doesnt matter if UK is in or out the EU we have the best universitys in the world , the first choice for most Asians would be UK , thats not going to change in or out the EU , in France you can go to insead and do an MBA in beurocracy then become a civil servant , very popular option in France .
(03 November 2012, 12:49PM) Complain about this comment
.....for the first time in 350 years Europe is no longer a continent of competing truths. Of the last 15 members to join the EU 12 did so precisely to protect their nation states independence (mainly from Russia but also Turkey and Belgrade). Europe can go back to a medieval pattern of multiple interpenetrating borders inside a single continent,as described by John Ralston Saul in his "Collapse of Globalism". Multi-layered,diverse but joined by the aim of preventing German, Russian or indeed US dominance. Europe ceased being integrationist in 2004, so UKIP is now 8 years past it's sell by date.
(03 November 2012, 12:55PM) Complain about this comment
Screw the EU, it will soon implode anyway.The UK should commence discussions to seek joining the NAFTA union. Liberal organisation based on free trade.
(03 November 2012, 01:12PM) Complain about this comment
Misallocation of funds re Common Agricultural Policy. Amuses me as a farmer why everybody always wants to bash any farm subsidies. They were brought in to feed a starving population after the war. I know it is anathema to subsidize anytthing nowadays (bar banks which seems ok - far more important to invest our money than eat) but if we didn't food prices would be far higher. The vast majority of food is produced at below cost of production without including subsidies as supermarkets never pay a fair price. Competition comission mean to sort this out joke. Run buy supermarkets say anything bad and you lose your contract and your out of business.
(03 November 2012, 01:17PM) Complain about this comment
misallocation of funds re Common Agricultural Policy. Am a farmer and it really annoys me why we can subsidize banks but not food. As v majority of food is produced at under cost of production . Subsidies are needed to make viable. Supermarkets don't pay fair prices.Without subsidies food prices would be far higher brought in after war to stop people starving. Misallocation is actually paying all these equal opportunity, quangos for doing unproductive jobs just making red tape
(03 November 2012, 01:20PM) Complain about this comment
Protecting nation states independance may be the official reasons given by the politicians and leaders , I concede that benefit matters to those countries bordering potential invaders but I am convinced they mainly joined for financial reasons and now its backfiring . I blame the Germans , they are great hard workers and good business people but they have zero street cred when they put so much trust in member states with no proper auditing thinking the others work and think the same Germanic way and now they are left trying to sort out the mess , they will never learn even now .
(03 November 2012, 01:53PM) Complain about this comment
Time to get out of this corrupt, wasteful, incompetent self-serving grouping of parasites. When did the auditors last manage to sign off the EU accounts?The sheer arrogance of this institution is breathtaking. With businesses across the region struggling to survive, what on Earth makes them even think of granting themselves a massive budget increase? This is exactly the kind of thinking that we lambast third world dictatorships for. Enough is enough.
(03 November 2012, 03:39PM) Complain about this comment
I also query the statistics that Merryn is quoting; if UKIP have anything to do with them they are bound to be questionable indeed. To those who are advocating withdrawal from the EU I would point out that, once outside, we would be like Norway and have to comply with all the regulations set by the EU without having any say whatsoever in the formation of them. The worst of all worlds.
(03 November 2012, 04:06PM) Complain about this comment
"Boris McDonut" obviously knows either nothing about the EU or is wilfully trying to present a false picture. For your information, "Boris" peace in Europe has been kept by NATO since 1945 - NOT the EU.So when you say it's "worth every penny" perhaps you better think about the money that goes out of this country to our detriment (hospital closures, lack of police, old people afraid to heat their houses) before you engage your opinions.
(03 November 2012, 04:22PM) Complain about this comment
I have often appreciated the Austrian approach to money. Now this article in Forbes reports that the ECB has published a paper on Virtual Currencies, and that BitCoin has a heritage that comes out of the Hayek playbook. Does this allow them to dump the Euro, and turn us all into Game Players killing virtual Gnomes and Squids for BitCoin cash?http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/11/03/ecb-roots-of-bitcoin-can-be-found-in-the-austrian-school-of-economics/
(03 November 2012, 04:35PM) Complain about this comment
The cost of the EU to every single citizen in any of the 15 nations in the E.U. is not just about money. The real costs is in human terms and loss of freedom and include the facts that:Not a single EU citizen has ever been asked if they wanted to join the E.U.Corrupt E.U. staff are immune from prosecution.The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government The E.U. wants to ban political parties which disapprove of the E.U. The European Court of Justice now has the authority to overturn laws made by the English parliament, and verdicts delivered by English courts. Fraud costs the E.U. between £4 and £8 billion a year. And as most people know, the EU Budget has not been audited and approved by the auditors for 17 yearsDoes any sane person want to live within a regime like this even if the fiscal cost was worth it?
(03 November 2012, 05:12PM) Complain about this comment
#44 David. You are in a pickle with your history. NATO was important in keeping peace in Europe, but was set up to "keep Russia out, keep America in and keep Germany down". It only evolved to justify US intervention in Korea and had no useful purpose other than reassuring the US that the Marshall Plan money would be repaid until the advent of the Warsaw Pact in 1956. Then it became a counter to Soviet ambition. Its only other military forays being Bosnia and Afghanistan.The EU was a more ambitious experiment to make war between Germany and France unthinkable and latterly to wars with Britain and Poland too. Since the Treaty of Rome we had what have been described as "empty happy years" . Uneventful compared to tens of million killed,tens of millions homeless, tens of millions hungry and debts at three times the "crisis" levels of today.Trade is the best reducer of violence and welfare states help remove the motive forces from extremism. The EU is a winner on most fronts.
(03 November 2012, 05:16PM) Complain about this comment
#46 Old Chap. Clearly not old enough. What would be the cost of another European conflagrationbe? £1 trillion, £3 trillion, £5 trillion? It would certainly make the bit of fraud you refer to at £13 per citizen per year look like chicken feed.
(03 November 2012, 05:25PM) Complain about this comment
If we did leave the EU wouldn't that mean that other countries in the EU have to increase there contributions to make up the short fall from us leaving?Would tariffs be imposed on goods exported to EU?Perhaps one money saving scheme that could help is this absurd notion of having two EU parliaments, Brussels and Strasbourg!
(03 November 2012, 05:47PM) Complain about this comment
10% of GDP may be too high or too low. The amount is certainly huge. As regards waste, I shared an office building with the EU "ambassador" to Uganda for a couple of years. Not really an ambo at all, and UK, Germany, France and several other EU countries were already represented, so no need for EU presence. The main activity was trying to get ambo status for the EU rep. Never caught them doing anything else. Due to pointlessness, the waste factor was higher than DfID, even higher than UNDP. We should move to join Norway & Switzerland or if that's not possible, leave the EU. We joined a Common Market, not theUS of Europe.
(03 November 2012, 05:58PM) Complain about this comment
There have been a few suggestions here that the EU has had the great benefit of preventing war in Europe; an objective that surely no-one would question.However, I wonder just how effective the EU actually is on this? Does it deserve credit for preventing war?Bosnia was one recent nasty European conflict. I seem to remember a lot of hand-wringing over the idea that military intervention never works, and should not be attempted. However, the siege of Srebenica was ended by NATO airstrikes in 3 days, and an settlement enforced on all parties not long after - which seems to have held. The lesson here , surely, is that different situations require different solutions to end crises. And I don't remember the EU plaing any useful role in the resolution.
Hail to the Loyal 53. They speak for most true Brits.Mr Cameron should listen carefully to them before the next election, or it will be the last opportunity for him to do anything at all. kitpotter
(03 November 2012, 06:01PM) Complain about this comment
The EU is like a blackhole with an event horizon around the periphery of Germany et al and into which much of the wealth of those EU countries outside of that horizon is being 'sucked'.Boris, who needs wars; this is conquer by stealth!
(03 November 2012, 06:02PM) Complain about this comment
#50. We don't have the option of "joining Norway & Switzerland". Little tax havens with only 5 or 6 million people. Britain is the World's sixth economy and fourth military spender. We also have a chequered history that morally gives us responsibilities, especially in our own backyard. We simply cannot turn our back on Europe. Every time we tried in the past led to everything getting worse and that, I fear, is what motivates that shower UKIP. They thrive on seeking to make everything worse.
(03 November 2012, 06:11PM) Complain about this comment
#53 Rick .You miss the point. Whether or not the benign and efficient democracy that is modern Germany is the most dominant palyer in the EU does not negate the fact that most nations on the periphery clamour to join and to replicate this. It also sidesteps the tricky issue of Europe's massive legacy of blood-letting. In the worst case scenario you allude to (everyone goes Deutsch) I do not see tens of millions massacred in the process.You however, seem pre-occupied with your wallet.
(03 November 2012, 06:25PM) Complain about this comment
@ 55. BorisThis is not just about wallets. This is also about what Old Chap @ 46. has put; this is mainly about loss of Freedom.In any case; I bet you'd be concerned about your wallet if your prospective pension were very significantly threatened. Zombie!
(03 November 2012, 06:28PM) Complain about this comment
(03 November 2012, 06:40PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, leaving the EU is not 'turning our back on Europe'. It is simply recognising that imposing political and fiscal union on a rich and diverse group of cultures is an unworkable idea which in the end will fail. Ultimately, I believe that our most useful role as a European nation would be to broker a transition out of the Euro and into separate national currencies: difficult of course, but in the end vital for the repair of Europe.I'm not a great fan of UKIP, but I just can't see how you can describe them as "they thrive on seeking to make everything worse". Unkind critics might have said that about several of our recent governments!
(03 November 2012, 08:24PM) Complain about this comment
I live in spain and have done so for over 15 years.I speak spanish and have many spanish friends.I have also lived in Portugal, Greece, Italy and France. I think I know Europe pretty well. From the point of view of politics and bureaucracy it is a nightmare. Corruption is endemic and inefficiency and stupidity within government everywhere.It is heartbreaking to see ordinary people crushed every day by this mindless, idiotic, arrogante class. Can it change? I doubt it except through violence.So dont listen to this nonesense about europe being the answer to peace.It is the problem not the solution.
(03 November 2012, 10:35PM) Complain about this comment
The EU undoubtedly costs us far more than we get out of it.As everyone knows we run a huge deficit in trading with it and pay far to much simply to be a member.Whilst the monetary situation is of importance the political situation is of overwhelming importance to our democracy.The EU wants to baton down the hatches on nation states,its (unelected) commission wants to rule its members without interference from national governments.There will soon be a new treaty to set up a new status quo .That is why we must leave.
(04 November 2012, 07:49AM) Complain about this comment
'The minute you'd leave the EU, hundreds of thousands of EU students would go to Sweden, Netherlands and Germany to study and the same would be for workers. I am from the EU and if this happened I would leave the UK the next day, life is too small to have to deal with green cards while the country next door is 2x hospitable.'This is music to my ears. Just what a lot of Brits want. This is the best reason for pulling out of the EU and the sooner the better. I imagine we share the view of many thousands of true Englishmen.
(04 November 2012, 09:18AM) Complain about this comment
An interesting discussion! Personally, I wish to live in a safe free democratic society with accountable government of a minimum size to safeguard that freedom. I voted to join the Common Market as it is beneficial to be tied to Europe by trade. However the leadership in Europe is busy forging a superstate for which not a single person in the EU has voted. In the process these faceless autocrats are imposing an unaccountable wasteful corrupt regime and seek to achieve by stealth what Napoleon and Hitler failed to achieve by force. I cannot support this. If I am prevented from exercising my democratic right to vote against being part of this superstate I will have little choice but to vote UKIP, although to be frank I don’t really want to.
(04 November 2012, 10:25AM) Complain about this comment
#33 Frank McAvoy is right when he points out what Norways pays for market access. It is not a secret, but a fact largely ignored by UKIP, that it could cost us more to have market access as a non member than it costs us being a member so all talk of saving money by withdrawing, but keeping market access, is misguided. Of course there would be negotiations on what we would have to pay, but taking what Norway pays as a benchmark it would be more. Certainly it is higly unlikely to be less than we pay now.
(04 November 2012, 01:11PM) Complain about this comment
So have a Free Trade Agreement .Over 90 countries have one and some of them do far more business with the EU than we do.We ARE the EU`s best customer,they have to do us a deal.
(04 November 2012, 01:20PM) Complain about this comment
48. Boris MacDonut If this is your honest opinion, that the financial and personal cost of the EU is worth it because it stops wars, I feel sorry for your world. If Germany in particular could control itself then we wouldn't have these problems. However as it stands today, Germany virtually control the EU so have got European domination without a shot fired. Europe's citizens controlled by unelected people who cannot be removed, or even prosecuted for corruption Are you pleased about this state of affairs. PS. I was born during WW2 so obviously have vastly more experience than you.
(04 November 2012, 03:56PM) Complain about this comment
#65 Old Chap. This is indeed my honest opinion. The EU is one of the greatest achievements in human history and a few snipes an bout inefficiency or waste do not amount to an argument to get rid of it. teh cost to the UK if the EU did not exist would be unimaginable,not just in pound notes,but lives and quality of life. You were what 2 or 3 years old at the end of the war? I have spent 45 years reading history.Who would be better placed to comment?
(04 November 2012, 04:41PM) Complain about this comment
It's such a pity the EU takes so long to resolve problems. Take the Euro crisis for example. How long must this fiasco continue? And they're no better with wars. Not only did the EU not preventthe war in the Balkans, it took the Americans to resolve it.
(04 November 2012, 05:19PM) Complain about this comment
@ 66. BorisQuote: "I have spent 45 years reading history. Who would be better placed to comment?"Well Boris, I have more respect for the opinions coming from the wider view of an academic failure with much commonsense than those coming from the narrow view of an academic achiever without much commonsense.Moreover, accreditation of the writings of so-called recognised and respected academics is exactly what the status quo wants - to brainwash.It is my opinion that academia is essentially largely about the recognition of the best candidates for indoctrination. It very occasionally accidentally finds candidates with much commonsense - these are the ones who, not being easily indoctrinated, have had to work extra hard to retain obtuse information. So, there are academic achievers around with much commonsense, Old Chap may be one of them, but I doubt you are.
(04 November 2012, 05:54PM) Complain about this comment
Boris - so good to be able to answer a rhetorical question. "Who would be better placed to comment?" Answer: most of the contributors to this discussion! Have you not taken note of the many points that others have made?"The EU is one of the greatest achievements in human history". Really? You would rank it alongside the vast progress that medical science has made? The Renaissance with its explosion of cultural development? The Reformation with all the social reforms that it brought with it? Boris, you need a bit of a reality check here.Consider this: you have much to say about the EU's role in ending wars. Where was the EU during the Bosnia debacle? As others have said, it took NATO to provide a solution to that one. Not a lot of evidence for EU effectiveness in that department.
(04 November 2012, 06:06PM) Complain about this comment
well,surely the main point at the moment is we are broke as a country so we cant keep using the nations' credit card.whether you agree with subsidising the eu by £8 billion or not,the simple fact is we cannot afford it.Its the same with overseas aid-we havent got the money for it.Or we can make the choice,cut our pensions and benefits instead.Its like being broke and donating to Oxfam with your credit card.
#68 Rick. Sorry to disappoint, but I am definitely no "academic achiever", just widely read. That helps me to see most sides of each argument and spot the flaws in many of them. #69 I am tired of repeating the simple reason why the EU is such a success. 60 years without tens of millions killed,bereaved homeless and hungry. How many kids did the Renaissance feed?
(04 November 2012, 06:36PM) Complain about this comment
71 Boris: here is why you have to keep repeating yourself. The mere connection between the lack of war and the existence of the EU proves nothing. You could as easily say that the Beatles have prevented outbreaks of war across the continent. Do you even acknowledge the ineffectiveness of the EU during the Balkan conflict?If you want to prove that the EU has been such a positive force for preventing war, then please give us some evidence. Mere repetition will not cut the mustard.
(04 November 2012, 06:44PM) Complain about this comment
@ 71.Boris, no need to apologise. Nor do you disappoint; you don't have to have formal qualifications to be an academic, being widely-read, as you put it, or self-educated, is qualification enough.Einstein:"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
(04 November 2012, 07:02PM) Complain about this comment
It is nonsense to suggest that the European Union was the reason that there has been no inter state war (particularly between Germany and France) since the signing of The Treaty of Rome, which as only a originally an open trading zone with French farmers creaming it from CAP.The Marshal Plan gave funding to Germany and Western Europe to rebuild after the the Second World War and the American military kept the Soviet Union at bay and the West united against a common enemy. After the First World War, France caused Germany immense austerity, demanding impossible payments for the war, which led to economic and social collapse in Germany; Adolf Hiltler and the Second World War, i.e. it was one European country having financial power over an another. Just what the European Union is about now and going down the same route in Greece and possibly Spain. It is the Americans that deserve the merit for peace in Western Europe not the European Union.
(04 November 2012, 07:07PM) Complain about this comment
#73 Rick. We've seen your inverted snobbery before. But I suppose ignorance is bliss.#72Ian. To suggest the EU had no more impact on European peace than the Beatles is childish. We have just experienced an unprecedented 60 years of European co-operation. Little things like twin towns, school exchange visits and the Eurovision song contest and big things like Concorde and Airbus and not invading Poland or Belgium. But as Commonman shows it costs all of £150 a year each. I estimate a fresh war with Germany would cost the UK at least £3 trillion....... that is £50,000 each.
(04 November 2012, 07:09PM) Complain about this comment
#74 Good grief why do we bother?
(04 November 2012, 07:51PM) Complain about this comment
@ 75. BorisDefinition of Inverted Snob:'a person who scorns the conventions or attitudes of his own class or social group by attempting to identify with people of a supposedly lower class'Are you suggesting I am in the same social group as yourself?I regard myself as Truly Private Sector whereas I understand you to be Public Sector.Are you suggesting you're in a higher class than Einstein?Ignorance may be bliss, butEinstein:"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."A true comprehending of which you may be blissfully ignorant.
(04 November 2012, 07:59PM) Complain about this comment
#77 Not sure what you are driving at Rick. You scorned me for reading books, as if I should just form opinions based on total ignorance. Unfortunately there are enough on here doing that already. Supremely confident of the uninformed gibberish they spout.
(04 November 2012, 08:01PM) Complain about this comment
Well Boris, now we're getting somewhere. If I might make one little suggestion, perhaps a bit less criticism of others on the forum (inverted snobbery, attachment to wallets etc.)? It will make for a more amiable debate. And Alan's comments, #74, do deserve respect.Anyway, on to the meat of the matter: European co-operation will not, I think, give anyone any problems. Great idea, free trade being obviously desirable. The issue is this: A free trade zone is just not enough for these meddlesome politicians. They have to add political federation to the mix. And without the consent of their electorates - high-handed arrogance indeed. Then they come up with the absurd idea of monetary union, a concept that history has shown to be unworkable. Thank God for Black Wednesday, which bounced us out of the ERM! At least we don't have the horrors that Greece and several other countries have to deal with.
(04 November 2012, 08:14PM) Complain about this comment
Good grief Boris et al. Do you have to dominate every discussion board here? Your arguments are NOT as insightful as you seems to think they are and endless repetition does not make them more so.Please just say your piece and let it be.
(04 November 2012, 08:16PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, has it not occurred that some of your opinions may be biassed by prejudicial writing.Also, being in the Public Sector you may be cocooned from what is happening to the Truly Private Sector. I'm sure you have heard of Totalinarianism - that, I imagine, is where the EU is headed. Is that what you want?
(04 November 2012, 08:28PM) Complain about this comment
@ 80.You betray your ignorance.
(04 November 2012, 09:18PM) Complain about this comment
Get our ASAP, no benefit. NATO stopped wars, Ted Heath was a liar!!
(04 November 2012, 09:49PM) Complain about this comment
I voted to enter the Common Market but was lied to. If I had been told the truth I would have voted against it and I believe that many, many people who voted as I did feel the same way.The EU is not just undemocratic, it is an anti democratic. Power is held by self serving, unelected bureaucrats who care nothing for democracy. The cash cost to the UK of EU membership is high but the greatest cost is in terms of our lost freedom. 80% of our laws now come from the politicos in Brussels (German assessment not mine), and I have no wish to be ruled by people over whom I have no control.Regarding the argument that the EU has saved us from another war; that benefit was down to N.A.T.O. and the good old U.S.A., not the EU. In fact, the undemocratic EU is more likely to start another European war than rather than stop one; ask the Greeks and the Spanish youngsters with 50% unemployment not me; oh and watch your TV screens, the worst by far is yet to come.
(04 November 2012, 10:57PM) Complain about this comment
0.25% for “waste, fraud and corruption”If you want a good laugh read some of the reports from the Court of Auditors - best item I found was some of their staff checking on industrial buildings which had received EU subsidies - they went to see a building in Sicily and were told "it has fallen down".I am surprised not to have read that one in the Daily Mail.
(05 November 2012, 10:25AM) Complain about this comment
@Boris,You sound just like the pro-European politicians and the generic speeches they make within the European Parliament to the effect of "Isn't Europe wonderful!? There definitely isn't a problem in Southern Europe! Who's for more European integration? I've done my 5 minutes for today I'm off to the duty free bar (That'll be 3o4 Euros for accommodation and subsistence. And because the journey was under 800km I can claim travel expenses without a receipt)!"
(05 November 2012, 10:27AM) Complain about this comment
Boris MacDonut. Your self implied superiority of understanding and analysis of the benefits of the EU, and your laughable proposition that it is this corrupt, dishonest, undemocratic and blatantly self rewarding elite that have kept the peace since the EU's inception and delivered prosperity has been the best single antidote to any seasonal gloom I may have felt. Keep up the pomposity, especially your attacks on the, admittedly, one issue UKIP and on those who have different opinions to yours as 'Lidl Englanders'. If you don't already work for, or benefit from, the EU, you easily could tomorrow. Priceless.
(05 November 2012, 11:02AM) Complain about this comment
I was quite Eurosceptic until I read this book ...http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1847945708/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d3_i1Now, understanding the EU better, I'm extremely Eurosceptic.If a few million more of the educated people across Europe were aware of half of what goes on, the EU would collapse tomorrow.
(05 November 2012, 11:12AM) Complain about this comment
There is but one country in the EU that really matters now and that is Germany. France has lost it. The Dutch are beginning to experience economic problems - although they have always paid more than their fair share. The Swedish have a very good economy - certainly by EU standards, but are not big enough to really make much difference.Everyone else is a drain (except us who contribute more than our fair share). Of all the world's emerging economies, the emerging countries of the EU are mostly emerging at a much slower pace.We should wake up and smell the coffee. It would pay us to engage in a much better way with economies such as China/India/Brazil/Mexico/Turkey and other South American and Pacific nations. Australia and Ndew Zealand had to find other markets when we joined the EU. This is a wake up call.
(05 November 2012, 11:15AM) Complain about this comment
And we should take immigrants who offer skills we do not possessourselves - which is more likely to be from India than from the rest of the EU. The preponderance of the unskilled are just depriving the young of their first job opportunities. And we pay child benefit to other EU countries even when the children areresident elsewhere. What craziness.Even when several EU countries citizenss are placed at a disadvantage in financial or property transactions, the EU is useless in sticking up for them against misdemeanors committedby non EU citizens.property or financial dealings
(05 November 2012, 12:44PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, where are you?Could you respond, please, to my question on the EU's ineffectiveness in the Balkans? And, in light of the many posted comments, have you now revised your opinion of the EU as "one of the greatest achievements in human history"? On the basis of much evidence cited on this forum, I suggest that NATO and the US have had a much more significant role in European peace.Finally, perhaps you might revise your statement about forum members: "Supremely confident of the uninformed gibberish they spout". Rather harsh, I'd say, and paints you as quite arrogant and not very open to the ideas of others. Please don't allow this caricature of yourself to persist, I'm sure you're better than that.
(05 November 2012, 02:08PM) Complain about this comment
I remember sitting in history lessons at school seeing maps of Europe showing different alliances and various treaties that usually lasted for 50 years or so. Britain has always been an independent country and I'm not surprised that we would resist being integrated into what is becoming a ‘black hole’. Empires collapse when the cost of maintaining them is more than the benefits gained from them. It’s time to move on.
(05 November 2012, 06:24PM) Complain about this comment
I am flabbergasted by the ignorance of history that pertains among the posters on here.#93.You were not listening to your history lessons. Britain was run by the Romans from 50AD, the Germans from 500AD, the French and the Pope until about 1430, the Spanish for much of the 1500's, by the Dutch from 1688 to 1715 and by the USA from 1942 to 1973. #92Ian. You can't be serious. Trying to undermine the intrinsic value of the EU in preventing Franco-German wars with some failed post Cold war diplomacy. Bosnia will join the EU. It wants to join,to secure its future. It does not seek the help of the USA.#90&91.You appear to be both racially "over aware" and preoccupied with profit and loss accounts.#87 Andrew H. Your posts have declined from simple idiocy to plain abuse. Go away and come up with an original idea before you burst. You've missed the point that a bit of money creamed off by bent Euro politicians is worth it, in return for not repeating the the years 1914 to 1945.
(05 November 2012, 06:37PM) Complain about this comment
@ 94.Boris, do you consider [quote you] "the bit of money creamed off by bent Euro politicians" to be worth the advent of Totalitarianism in virtual exchange?And don't tell me it isn't happening.
(05 November 2012, 07:13PM) Complain about this comment
#95 Rick. Now that is paranoia. Totalitarianism. Where do you think you live, China? The USA? Here in Europe we have put such idealism behind us.We are civilised and the rest of the World looks to us for its lead. Not to the USA and not to China.
(05 November 2012, 07:39PM) Complain about this comment
@Everybody,You heard it here first, Borss @94 says that politicians are above the law provided they espouse some vague political project for peace.@94, Boris,While we're on the subject of accusing commenters of historical ignoance, I think you missed the bit in the history books where it becomes quite clear that corruption is the underlying process by which government lose their legitimacy.Here's what Frederic Bastiat wrote in this respect back in 1850:"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it"
(05 November 2012, 07:55PM) Complain about this comment
@ 96. Boris, I first became aware of the advent of Totalitarianism in the late 80's; I've had a first-hand encounter, and it wasn't a pleasant experience.It appears to me that whilst you've:a) been book-worming you've allowed yourself to be influenced by 'propoganda by stealth'b) been cocooned in the Public Sector you've been isolated from the Truly Private Sector and so not noticed the increasing rate of decline of Freedom over the last few decades and the increasing rate of centralised intervention, mostly c/o edicts from the EU. Of course, you may be a regime plant on this site briefed to convince us all that such an advent is not taking place; amongst other deceptions. If that be the case then I would imagine you'll largely be preaching to the unconvertible.Over but not out.
(05 November 2012, 07:59PM) Complain about this comment
@Boris, 94 & 96,The world is not looking toward Europe for leadership, and as a group of people we are no better than anyone else. The problems in Southern Europe are a damning indictment of both your notions. I suspect you are going to deny the rise of nationalist and extreme socialist parties across Europe, and also calls from various regional entities for independence? And I suspect you'll also deny the problem of massive unemployment, particularly of young people, in Southern Europe? If not deny, then lay the blame elsewhere, rather than at the feet of European leaders and the ECB, where it undeniably belongs.
(05 November 2012, 08:42PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, good to have you back. Thought you'd deserted us.You have totally missed the point of my Balkan question. I referred to the atrocities in Bosnia, culminating in the particularly nasty siege of a major European city. And whilst the EU procrastinators were hand-wringing, NATO stepped in and saved the day. What is your take on the ineffectiveness of the EU? What then gives you reason to believe that the EU could do any useful peace-keeping in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter?And I take issue with your description of Andrew H's posts. Use of irony and humour (#87) to illustrate a point is totally valid. When he says that nobody is looking to Europe for leadership, he's right - When I travel in Africa, I find the Chinese involved in business everywhere. And EU governments? Busy exporting "good governance" and trying to impose human rights legislation. That will help African states - not!
(05 November 2012, 08:46PM) Complain about this comment
A few years ago, it was put at €387M a day:-http://www.freebritain.org.uk/_literature_102624/387_million_euros_per_dayOf course that's only for the known knowns, the price tag for the rest of the family is yet to be established and judging by how ugly the crowd's looking, it's not going to be cheap.It's not the first time that someone who had a dream didn't get to see what a nightmare the reality become, and this has the feel of a big one, which is a shame because it was a good dream.
(05 November 2012, 08:48PM) Complain about this comment
#97&99. Andrew. I asked you to go away and come up with an idea, but all you did was seek to tell me and others what you think I think. I didn't say politicians are above the law. i said a bit of fraud was infinitely better than wholesale slaughter. It is flattering that you are so consumed by what I might think, but do try having an original thought. The bit about extreme socialist parties is a good try but wide of the mark.You sound like Mitt Romney-lite.
(05 November 2012, 08:56PM) Complain about this comment
#100 Ian. Do you think the EU needs to be a military power to be of any consequence? It is precisely the non military nature of the EU that is so successful and appealling. As I have said, the EU is a force for good and peace in Europe. Once Bosnia is inside the tent do you really think such atrocities would happen there again? NATO failed to intervene in far more crises over the decades and as for the US as World's policeman,they abnegated that responsibility about 20 years ago or more. The EU is now the pre-eminent power in the modern World, sorry it irks you so.
(05 November 2012, 09:05PM) Complain about this comment
@Boris, 102I'm presenting facts and information, as I always do (even my satricial quote provided a few nuggets).As I said you would, you've outright denied the rise of nationalist and socialist parties in Europe, for example True Finn, Golden Dawn, Syriza, various Catalonian independence parties (I can provide the various election results to back my point).In your world Boris though, it hasn't happened, because you say "it hasn't".Further, you haven't even bothered to answer the employment question in Southern Europe.I would have more respect for your comments if you tried to present facts rather than rhetoric.
(05 November 2012, 09:19PM) Complain about this comment
@Boris, 103,The EU as an economic union is shrinking in terms of world GDP. Even the European Commission acknowledges that based on current trends, the share of world GDP of the EU will be down from 29% to only 18% by 2050.As for the EU putting an end to atrocities, you are denying the growing problems in Southern Europe, particularly Greece and the worsening intolerance shown by the Golden Dawn Party, which has apparently infiltrated the ranks of the police and is going as far as to bar people from attending social events which are odds with Golden Dawn ideology.
(05 November 2012, 10:21PM) Complain about this comment
#104 Andrew. Please explain where in your posts at 87,97 and 99 you conveyed any facts or information. All you have done is guess what I think and make a lame quote. As for the EU's share of World GDP falling that is a function of other nations getting richer. It omits the inevitable expansion of the EU as it gets more successful.A template for modern civilised democracies.My posts are full of facts. I refer you to#8 war deaths, #35 capitals,#37 numbers joining,#47 keydates,#48&75 the cost,#54 the size of Norway and #71 length of time without mass slaughter. Are all UKIP members as glib?
(05 November 2012, 11:06PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, your responses really do take the biscuit. Tell the people of Srebrenica how successful and appealing the non-military nature of the EU is.Just to make this perfectly clear to all, over 8,000 men and boys were killed in 1995. The mass murder was described by the UN Secretary-General as the worst crime on European soil since the Second World War. It didn't happen suddenly and unexpectedly: the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was formally recognised by the European Community on 6 April 1992, when Serbian forces immediately launched attacks, with ethnic cleansing. This outrage continued, even escalated, until the NATO offensive of 30th August to 20th September 1995 broke Serbian military capability. After formal recognition, the EC effectively abrogated responsibility for this fledgling European state and abandoned them to the wolves. And you, Boris the historian, want us to recognise the EU as the pre-eminent power in the modern World?
(05 November 2012, 11:08PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, you talk glibly about facts. I have given you historical facts. You persist in glorifying the EU as the world's moral and ideological leader. Only in Borisworld does this logic seem to work; you are delusional. But don't worry, you share this delusional ability with the Brussels autocrats - a great Euro career may lie ahead of you!
(05 November 2012, 11:33PM) Complain about this comment
@Boris, 106All you've done is to provide a few unrelated statistics, with the footnote "therefore the European Union is responsible for peace in Europe"I've provided a facts that show the EU is now failing economically, and politically, and by implication is not responsible for the relative peace in Europe since 1945.I would argue that the threats from the Soviet Union (i.e. The Cold War) as well as nuclear conflict, was a primary motivation in this respect.If we consider the Marshall Plan, very much a forerunner to the ECSC (which became the EEC, and finally the EU) it was seen as bulwark against the spread of communism in Europe. One of the key points of this plan was the establishment of free trade in Europe.
(05 November 2012, 11:56PM) Complain about this comment
...continued...With the end of the Soviet Union, and the European Union moving far beyond its original purpose, the EU has lost its original purpose, and is fast losing legitimacy too.On the question of legitimacy, the British public were last offered a vote on the Europe in 1975, strictly a customs union. Today public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of a referrendum on membership, and also in favour of withdrawal from Europe. Despite corruption, the unfolding tragedy in Southern Europe, unwillingness for referrendum or to acknowledge where the EU is failing, pro-European politicians continue to push for yet more integration which is now having the opposite effect, which can be seen in the rise of the popularity of extremist nationalist and socialist parties who have ambitions that go far beyond the goal of economic independence.
(06 November 2012, 12:07AM) Complain about this comment
...continued...I would also add that the number of people left with an adult memory of WWII are fast diminishing, and in another 10-20 years another motivation for European peace (i.e. those that remember the tragedy of war in Europe) will also be lost.All the ingredients are place for Europe to become increasingly volatile in terms of politics, in spite of the European Union.
(06 November 2012, 09:21AM) Complain about this comment
A concise and reasonable summation Andrew that even the most passionate of Europhiles should concede broadly how it is.They won't of course, and will still be arguing over how successful it is as violence rips its heart out, never imagining for one minute the ugliness of the Balkan conflict could repeat and spread so quickly through the streets of Europe.Boris is right to hold on to the dream, the original dream that is, not the festering cancer it's become.
(06 November 2012, 06:07PM) Complain about this comment
#106.Ian. What? You still seek to undermine the massive achievements of the EU based on one minor failure in 62 years. 8,000 FYI is the number of British,German,GFrench ,Canadians etc who died EVERY DAY for 4 and a half years from 1914 to 1918. On July 1st 1916 32,000 died in 4 hours. In WW2 the rate of killing hit 22,000 a day for 6 years. France and Germany not fighting is the single greatest achievemnet of the past century. Russia is an extertnal threat. You might as well tell us the EU should have sorted out Ulster. I am so amazed at your ridiculous stance that my jaw is in danger of dropping to the floor. For goodness sake wake up.
(06 November 2012, 06:16PM) Complain about this comment
#108 Andrew. Where did I say the words you carefully "quote"? The EU has given Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland,the UK etc.. every reason not to go to war. The USSR was an external threat. The good being done by the EU is between the 27 members. You UKIP types are not only thick skinned, but horribly poorly informed.To back a single issue nonentity you'd have to be.I refer you to post #35. Free trade reduces violence.Your post at #110 is very sinister. It betrays UKIP's pathetic hope that those with a memory of European tragedies such as WW2 will die out and the uninformed will pliantly accept the UK's removal from Europe. You ought to be ashamed.Lining the pockets of the already rich. You're either a sucker or badly corrupted.
(06 November 2012, 08:59PM) Complain about this comment
@Boris, 113I have no idea what you mean by that comment, it lacks any semblance of structure or logic.You are steadfastly refusing to debate the points I've made, and have reverted to yet more bizarre accusations, rhetoric and name calling.
(06 November 2012, 09:22PM) Complain about this comment
#114 If it needs explaining here goes. Andrew,you said that the Soviet Union was the motivation for peace in the EU.I have simply reminded you it was an external threat. Europes problems had always previously been generated from within.Hence the need for the EU.At #108 you actually put a sentence supposedly uttered by me in quotation marks,the time honoured way of signifying verbatim quotes. Yet,in none of my posts did I say this. So ,I can only take it as a clumsy,cynical and failed effort to dicredit someone you see as a threat.You try to tell me that free trade encourages peace ,when in fact I was the first to mention this. You co-opt my arguments to support your flawed theory. As for #110 that is awful.To openly wish for the older generation to die off and take their euro loving ways with them. Shocking.
(06 November 2012, 10:08PM) Complain about this comment
@ 115. Boris"... a clumsy, cynical and failed effort to discredit someone you see as a threat"Well, without wishing to be rude, as someone who employs such tactics themselves, you'd know all about that.
(06 November 2012, 10:13PM) Complain about this comment
Boris. Might as well face the fact that we're not going to agree. What you describe as one minor slip - the EU response to the Bosnia crisis - I see as a dreadful missed opportunity. 3 years and all the EU could do was procrastinate, hold endless meetings, set up committees, hand-wring and so on. 3 weeks and NATO nailed the problem. Why do I worry about this? Because it shows the sclerotic, bureaucratic response to a crisis. It gives me no confidence in their ability to manage more serious debacles.This week, the Centre for Economics and Business Research issued some predictions for EU growth - no surprise, they don't look good. The report also highlighted growing civil unrest in a number of countries, with social breakdown a real possibility. I'm not convinced that the EU is prepared for this.
(06 November 2012, 10:23PM) Complain about this comment
Boris, I think most people have given up on this thread. I must say that your position brings to mind the Titanic: I imagine a steward rushing around re-assuring the passengers that there was no problem, that the iceberg was one minor slip in an otherwise very pleasant journey, that the bilge pumps were fully capable of handling the leak and that the Captain and crew were fully trustworthy. Do you wonder why almost everyone on this forum would identify the EU with a sinking ship? Still, it has been an entertaining debate. To the next one!
(07 November 2012, 04:59PM) Complain about this comment
#117 Ian. At the time of the disintegration of Yugoslavia why would the EU be expected to intervene in Bosnia? Not even Poland or the Czechs were in the EU in 1992. It would have set a dreadful precedent to do so ,even if the Eu did have a military arm. Where else would you have the EU project force oversea? I am simply glad that those within its boundaries do not fight and the bigger it grows, the fewer potential conflicts there are and the less likely the USA is to have any say in what is going on.#116 Rick .Bit rude, but i'm getting used to disapproval as two of muy posts have been removed for references to UKIP. Please don't go all holy and sensitive like they do.
(07 November 2012, 05:55PM) Complain about this comment
#118 Ian.Yes,I realise why most people on here see the EU as a sinking ship. Failure to understand.
(07 November 2012, 06:31PM) Complain about this comment
Oh don't you worry about me Boris; you're entitled to spout your misguided or otherwise opinions right now; just as anyone else. But where the EU is headed without UKIP's stated intervention I doubt that entitlement will be around in the UK for much longer.
(16 November 2012, 08:25AM) Complain about this comment
Glancing through the comments on this blog, it seems to be Boris v The Rest. I'm glad to see 'The Rest' have the required common sense to balance out the dogmatic drivel emanating from other quarters.
(16 November 2012, 02:31PM) Complain about this comment
Steve, Boris has been a great help in this discussion. I doubt whether anyone else could have marshalled opinion against the EU quite as effectively; his strategy has been masterful. Abuse, illogic and selective use of data together with taking his case to the limit (no matter how unreasonable) have worked wonders.
(16 November 2012, 06:32PM) Complain about this comment
#122/123 How very rude of the UKIP types. The basic fact is that the EU is an excellent organisation that shines a torch into the future for mankind. Those who oppose it tend to be very ill informed , a prerequisite for the UKIP voter normally. Perhaps Ian and Steve could tell us a reason other than their own wallets for disliking the EU, or does pure self interest win every time?
(17 November 2012, 08:00AM) Complain about this comment
Very funny Boris - but I'm not rising to the bait.
(17 November 2012, 08:40PM) Complain about this comment
#125 Or you have nothing of value to say, other than seek to blame foreigners for your own misfortune. Another UKIP classic.
(11 January 2013, 09:15AM) Complain about this comment
I am tired of these so called scientifically researched 'real cost of EU'articles that ignore opportunity costs. To keep trading with the EU, the UK would still have to comply with the same EU trading regulations, but have no say over them. Just ask Norway! Furthermore even the Torygraph recently admit that whitehall has been good plating European Directives, making them even more expensive to implement by adding unnecessary extras, then blaming it on Europe. What savings?
Name This will be the name displayed with your comment.
Email This helps us verify comments are genuine. It will not be displayed anywhere on the site and is stored confidentially.
Comment Please keep your comment within 1,000 characters and relevant to the main topic. We encourage healthy debate, but we don't allow insults or bad language. Anything off topic or unpleasant, we'll remove. Enjoy the conversation! Thank you.
To prevent spam-related comments please enter the characters shown in the 'Captcha' box to the left.
Enter the text from the box above
Remember my details
By leaving a comment you accept our terms and conditions.
Our free daily email, Money Morning, is an informative and enjoyable analysis of what's going on in the markets. Written by our Editor, John Stepek, and guest contributors.Sign up FREE to Money Morning here.
23 May 13
22 May 13
21 May 13
16 April BBC Radio Scotland(From 1h 45m in)
21 March Radio 4: Moneybox Live
12 March Photogallery of Merryn's talk at BAB London
Become a smarter investor in just 3 minutes a day.
MoneyWeek is not responsible for the content of external internet sites.